3 Windscreen PCNs - Premier Parking Logistics/Premier Parking Enforcement LTD

SilverTeddy11

PCNs were received on the windshield in Alison Street Car Park, Birmingham on 6th Aug 2022 (ticket expired by 35 mins), and a further 2 on 12th Aug 2022 20:09 and 13th Aug 2022 at 10:28 (a valid ticket was purchased and displayed to cover the entire 24 period from 14:05 - 14:05 for this day however, the ticket was flipped in the wind and was blank side up). The machine required the driver to input their car registration number.

Notice to Keeper received dated 7th Sept 2022, 13th Sept 2022, 14th Sept 2022 respectively. £300 total so far... Of course, there was a reduced fee of £60 for the first 14 days...

Appeal made via email for all 3 PCNs, as keeper today (4th - 5th Oct 2022). They are IPC members, and I waited till NTK to appeal as per sticky. However I noticed on the windshield PCN that it says I need to appeal within 21 days, otherwise it won't be processed. The NTK says the ability to appeal is no longer available. (Unless there are exceptional circumstances)
I stated in my appeal that I received the NTK after 28 days, keeper liability is not legally possible at a time before this, and so I have the right to appeal as keeper.

I attached pictures of poor signage (tiny A4 sized signage, with tiny writing), and argued on the points that the signage was poor, they has incorrect parking charge signage displayed on a very large board, The "parking ticket notice" had a fine of £100 to be paid in 14 days. This is against regulation that state the maximum allowed for a legitimate abuse of a car park is £50 (which this was not the case).

Online payment system is unavailable, therefore 24 hour payment line is 0844 304 XXXX. The 0844 payment line is a prohibited premium rate 'phone number according to the IPC. When connected, the message 'call centre disconnected the call' plays - my network block paid phone calls.

For the 2 that I had a valid ticket for, I attached the ticket, and argued that I had a valid ticket for this period. And also argued against the 2+ tickets issued in a 24 hour period.

Requested IPC escalation if not cancelled.

Today (05Oct2022) is the last day I can pay for the first £100 pcn due to 'ticket expiry' before they'll probably add £70 on top. I can't pay online and the 0844 number is blocked by my network, so my only option is to send a letter/cheque, which won't reach them in time. I'm a final year student and £170 is like gold to me, should I attempt to pay the £100 for the first one as it was a genuine expiry by 35 mins? Or should I stick it out, and possibly end up in court(!!!).

Also, even though I had a valid ticket for the next 2 charges, will it stand in appeal - there are photos of the flipped ticket?
I have exam season coming up, and I'm scared of the next steps. I see that IPC are unreasonable and it's very likely this will have to go to court.
How should I proceed?

Le_Kirk

Why are you thinking of paying?  If you have valid reasons for being in the car park (certainly in one case you did as you purchased a ticket and, as you had to input your VRM they should find your payment when they interrogate their systems) you should continue your efforts to appeal, maybe by post or e-mail.  That at least will show a judge that you tried to "narrow the issue" if it gets to court.  Who is the PPC?

Fruitcake

Plan A is always to complain to the landowner and your MP.

Appeal as keeper anyway. This 21 days malarky is an IPC wheeze where, as you say, the keeper cannot have appealed earlier if they knew nothing about it because the driver didn't pass the NTD to them beforehand.

If it is denied because it arrived after the 21 days following the alleged event, then complain to the IPC. It won't do any good except you can show the court that you tried to narrow the issue. Note that the ADR Regulations 2015 require ADR to be offered for not less than twelve months after the alleged event.

I'm not sure what you mean by this,

"This is against regulation that state the maximum allowed for a legitimate abuse of a car park is £50"

The private parking industry is unregulated, and they can demand however much they want. The term "legitimate abuse" is an oxymoron. It's legitimate use, or a contractual breach of Ts and Cs.

Coupon-mad

No paying - ABSOLUTELY NOT - but do send proof of having paid to park for the two with the fluttering ticket.  A photo of your valid P&D ticket.

DO NOT TRY IAS. REPORTEDLY USELESS FOR CONSUMERS.

And keep that ticket snd proof of appealing safe, in a drawer with ALL the letters as you will meed that evidence if they try a small claim.

As you are a student I expect you rent/move flats quite a bit, or will move on within 6 years?  Make sure every time you move that you email the PPC to tell them and tell them under your GDPR data rectification rights, to 'erase the old address'. Do that for 6 years. 

Come back here if you get a LBC from a solicitor (not scary) or a court claim next year or later (defendable) and especially so, if you show you did appeal. Judges like that).

Keep a blob of Blutack in your glovebox to stop car park tickets or permits flipping over in future.

SilverTeddy11

Okay so a bit of additional info, the only way to pay in this parking lot was through the machine, there was no way to pay by phone/app. The first ticket I received where the ticket expired by 35 mins was the one I was trying to pay by today (because I was genuinely late coming back to the car to extend the stay - there was no option to extend via phone)


I was so put off by these 3 tickets that I ended up parking in a car park 1 street away. 2 weeks go, while parked in that different car-park, my quarter light window was smashed and the entire front of the car was stolen. Insurance has now written off my car. Unfortunately, I only have pictures of my valid parking ticket left now and I technically won't even be the keeper of that car any more...

SilverTeddy11

Le_Kirk said:

Why are you thinking of paying?  If you have valid reasons for being in the car park (certainly in one case you did as you purchased a ticket and, as you had to input your VRM they should find your payment when they interrogate their systems) you should continue your efforts to appeal, maybe by post or e-mail.  That at least will show a judge that you tried to "narrow the issue" if it gets to court.  Who is the PPC?

I was thinking of paying only 1 of the tickets (the first one) where it was a genuine expiry of 35 mins - I don't think I have much of a leg to stand on, other than being late to return to extend the stay. So I guess I kind of deserved that one.

I definitely feel the 2nd and 3rd tickets were unjust and wouldn't want to pay the PCNs. I have a photo of my ticket with my reg and times. The PPC is Premier Parking Logistics/Premier Parking Enforcement LTD, by Walton Wilkins(?)

Fruitcake said:

Plan A is always to complain to the landowner and your MP.

Appeal as keeper anyway. This 21 days malarky is an IPC wheeze where, as you say, the keeper cannot have appealed earlier if they knew nothing about it because the driver didn't pass the NTD to them beforehand.

If it is denied because it arrived after the 21 days following the alleged event, then complain to the IPC. It won't do any good except you can show the court that you tried to narrow the issue. Note that the ADR Regulations 2015 require ADR to be offered for not less than twelve months after the alleged event.

I'm not sure what you mean by this,

"This is against regulation that state the maximum allowed for a legitimate abuse of a car park is £50"

The private parking industry is unregulated, and they can demand however much they want. The term "legitimate abuse" is an oxymoron. It's legitimate use, or a contractual breach of Ts and Cs.

I tried to find the landowner, but I can't seem to find who owns Allison Street Car park, would I be writing to the Birmingham MP or the MP from my city?
I've submitted the appeals for all 3 anyway, will see what happens.

As for that quote, I was scrolling through many many threads before sending off my appeal and it's something I found on the forum; I hoped it added some sort of weight haha

Coupon-mad said:

No paying - ABSOLUTELY NOT - but do send proof of having paid to park for the two with the fluttering ticket.  A photo of your valid P&D ticket.

DO NOT TRY IAS. REPORTEDLY USELESS FOR CONSUMERS.

And keep that ticket snd proof of appealing safe, in a drawer with ALL the letters as you will meed that evidence if they try a small claim.

As you are a student I expect you rent/move flats quite a bit, or will move on within 6 years?  Make sure every time you move that you email the PPC to tell them and tell them under your GDPR data rectification rights, to 'erase the old address'. Do that for 6 years. 

Come back here if you get a LBC from a solicitor (not scary) or a court claim next year or later (defendable) and especially so, if you show you did appeal. judges like that).

Keep a blob of Blutack in your glovebox to stop car park tickets or permits flipping over in future.

I've submitted the P&D ticket as evidence in the appeal. I took a photograph of it, however my car was recently written off (due to theft of parts in a nearby car-park) and my tickets were lost with the car as the RAC drove it away on the 18th Sept. A tragic month for me it seems.
It's funny now I'm left with £300 worth of PCNs on a car I will no longer own, and the only reason I parked in the other car park was because of these "fines" :'D (and because I could pay by phone in the other car park lol)
(I don't live in Birmingham) I will be moving in July 2023 once I start my junior doctor post.
I'm really scared the court times might coincide with my finals, or worse, while I'm away on an international elective next year for 6 weeks...

I will definitely be sticking them down in the future!!!

Coupon-mad

Don't pay any of them. Nothing you've added has changed our previous advice.

Le_Kirk

I tried to find the landowner, but I can't seem to find who owns Allison Street Car park, would I be writing to the Birmingham MP or the MP from my city?

One of our regulars @Umkomaas regularly posts info on how to find landowners, click on his name and check out his discussions/replies on this profile.  You write to YOUR MP but as a courtesy you copy in the MP of the area where the parking event took place

Umkomaas

Le_Kirk said:

I tried to find the landowner, but I can't seem to find who owns Allison Street Car park, would I be writing to the Birmingham MP or the MP from my city?

One of our regulars @Umkomaas regularly posts info on how to find landowners, click on his name and check out his discussions/replies on this profile.  You write to YOUR MP but as a courtesy you copy in the MP of the area where the parking event took place

1. Google searches

2. If a retail park, check on any signage which lists the on-site outlets

3. Ask retailers on the site if there is a managing agent

4. Ask retailers on the site to whom do they pay rent

5. Contact the local authority and ask who pays the non-domestic/business rate for the car park (some councils have a spreadsheet on their website)

6. Contact the local Valuation Office and ask if they know. They often have a website which might provide the information 

7. Contact The Land Registry and for around £3 they should be able to provide definitive detail

8. If you haven't already done so, give us the name of the car park/site/location, we may have seen other cases there. 

SilverTeddy11

Umkomaas said:

Le_Kirk said:

I tried to find the landowner, but I can't seem to find who owns Allison Street Car park, would I be writing to the Birmingham MP or the MP from my city?

One of our regulars @Umkomaas regularly posts info on how to find landowners, click on his name and check out his discussions/replies on this profile.  You write to YOUR MP but as a courtesy you copy in the MP of the area where the parking event took place

1. Google searches

2. If a retail park, check on any signage which lists the on-site outlets

3. Ask retailers on the site if there is a managing agent

4. Ask retailers on the site to whom do they pay rent

5. Contact the local authority and ask who pays the non-domestic/business rate for the car park (some councils have a spreadsheet on their website)

6. Contact the local Valuation Office and ask if they know. They often have a website which might provide the information 

7. Contact The Land Registry and for around £3 they should be able to provide definitive detail

8. If you haven't already done so, give us the name of the car park/site/location, we may have seen other cases there. 

Hello, thank you for your reply! I've googled but had no luck so far.
It's just a car-park car-park, not attached to any retail parks or shops. It's Allison Street Car Park in Birmingham, Digbeth - outdoor
So next bet is local authority/council

Coupon-mad

No it isn't.

Councils can't operate with a private firm issuing parking charge notices under contract law.