Economy 7 and ending of RTS (Radio Teleswitch Service)

Elisew

Gerry1 said:

macman said:

Given that total smart meter installs are barely at 50% and years behind schedule, it is reasonable to assume that about half the installed base of RTS meters are also still awaiting replacement? 
I don't know what numbers we are talking about, but it's not going to be done within the next 3 months. Even a year's delay to 3/24 still looks very optimistic, unless suppliers have a means of targetting RTS meters for replacement?

@macman @[Deleted User] @inspectorperez

It's 2025 ! 

From Elexon

Previous post from Elexon says 2025 which is one reason why I'm unsure about the timeframe that EDF state in their letter   

COULD not WILL, 2023, then 2024 also 2025.....*It's so easy to disbelieve what these companies claim'   

Elisew

JSHarris said:

Teleswitches are REALLY old, not seen one in the wild for around 20 years.  They stopped being installed in the 1980's I believe.  They use a signal on BBC Radio 4 Long Wave to switch, sequenced to phase the switching times by region (for grid balancing).

Time clock switching replaced Teleswitches from the late 1980's onwards.  Initially the time clocks were a separate box (like the big Teleswitch box) but around 30 years or so ago digital meters with built in time switches took over.  Two rate digital meters have 5 wires, rather than 4, with the fifth wire being the switched E7 or E10 line conductor.  This line conductor can directly supply a separate E7 consumer unit, for things like storage heaters or water heating.

The timing for a digital two rate meter is done internally with a preset clock (for obvious reasons this isn't user adjustable).  These tend to be pretty accurate, but I've seen a few over the years where the time has drifted a fair bit, or just been set incorrectly initially.  One quirk of these clock controlled meters (I have one) is that they don't adjust between UTC and BST in the way that multirate smart meters do.  This means the off-peak times change when the clocks change.

Finally, there are five wire multirate smart meters now, they've been around for three or four years.  This means that any five wire dumb meter can be replaced with a smart meter and retain the switched circuit for storage heaters with no significant changes needed.  Some suppliers are STILL unaware of these five wire smart meters though, and are giving out incorrect advice.  A  multirate smart meter is little different to a digital E7 meter, the peak and off-peak registers can be manually read by pushing a button in the same way.

Gerry1 said:

@Elisew The RTS contract runs until the end of March 2024.  However, it's been extended numerous times and IMHO may well be extended by at least another year.

Thanks. 
I'm pretty sure the meter at the premises isn't from the 80's, its too new and digital so deffo not an 'old one'. 

To be blunt.....I don't agree with us all being forced and shoved towards this whole 'Green and Net Zero' tosh which is one reason why I've held off having a Smart Meter installed. I don't trust nor do I like these Energy Companies and they way they've behaved towards the very people who keep them in business and I don't think these meters are of any benefit to anybody except the Government and Companies who want them installed. (Sceptical and Cynical? Most definitely I am)!

If I can hold them off for longer because it's not a change that HAS to happen sooner rather than later then all well and good for the time being but it's the not knowing. 

mmmmikey

In answer to question 3 "Do I really have to change to a smart meter..." the answer is yes, when your existing meter comes to the end of it's life it will be changed for a smart meter. That's true whether its an RTS meter or any other kind of meter. You might be able to resist and push back the date but sooner or later you'll have to change, so there is a school of thought that says its best just to bite the bullet and get it done now. The energy suppliers are legally bound to keep chasing you until you eventually agree so if you don't get it changed you'll have to accept that. And you won't get access to the full range of tariffs unless you change.

JSHarris

Elisew said:

JSHarris said:

Teleswitches are REALLY old, not seen one in the wild for around 20 years.  They stopped being installed in the 1980's I believe.  They use a signal on BBC Radio 4 Long Wave to switch, sequenced to phase the switching times by region (for grid balancing).

Time clock switching replaced Teleswitches from the late 1980's onwards.  Initially the time clocks were a separate box (like the big Teleswitch box) but around 30 years or so ago digital meters with built in time switches took over.  Two rate digital meters have 5 wires, rather than 4, with the fifth wire being the switched E7 or E10 line conductor.  This line conductor can directly supply a separate E7 consumer unit, for things like storage heaters or water heating.

The timing for a digital two rate meter is done internally with a preset clock (for obvious reasons this isn't user adjustable).  These tend to be pretty accurate, but I've seen a few over the years where the time has drifted a fair bit, or just been set incorrectly initially.  One quirk of these clock controlled meters (I have one) is that they don't adjust between UTC and BST in the way that multirate smart meters do.  This means the off-peak times change when the clocks change.

Finally, there are five wire multirate smart meters now, they've been around for three or four years.  This means that any five wire dumb meter can be replaced with a smart meter and retain the switched circuit for storage heaters with no significant changes needed.  Some suppliers are STILL unaware of these five wire smart meters though, and are giving out incorrect advice.  A  multirate smart meter is little different to a digital E7 meter, the peak and off-peak registers can be manually read by pushing a button in the same way.

Gerry1 said:

@Elisew The RTS contract runs until the end of March 2024.  However, it's been extended numerous times and IMHO may well be extended by at least another year.

Thanks. 
I'm pretty sure the meter at the premises isn't from the 80's, its too new and digital so deffo not an 'old one'. 

To be blunt.....I don't agree with us all being forced and shoved towards this whole 'Green and Net Zero' tosh which is one reason why I've held off having a Smart Meter installed. I don't trust nor do I like these Energy Companies and they way they've behaved towards the very people who keep them in business and I don't think these meters are of any benefit to anybody except the Government and Companies who want them installed. (Sceptical and Cynical? Most definitely I am)!

If I can hold them off for longer because it's not a change that HAS to happen sooner rather than later then all well and good for the time being but it's the not knowing. 

The history behind the UK government trying to almost mandate smart meters goes back to the "lessons learned" report following the 1987 "Great Storm" (the infamous Michael Fish one).  The grid came close to collapse and was only prevented from having to shut down and do a black start (and no one knew if a black start would even work) by splitting the grid in two and letting the two halves run asynchronously for a short time (with a massive amount of load shedding - and some overloading of generators).

One problem identified was that to manage a black start domestic loads needed to be able to be more finely controlled (i.e. not just turning on large blocks of the MV distribution network in one go).  Many big industrial loads could already be switched on remotely to help a black start, but not domestic loads.  A paper was written recommending that something like the E7/E10 Teleswitch remote control could fix this.  Eventually remote disconnection became a part of the smart meter specification.  The suppliers loved this; at last they could disconnect a troublesome customer without gaining entry.

All smart meters now have a remote disconnection contactor, although consumer groups applied pressure to try and prevent suppliers using it to cut people off.  At the moment suppliers have agreed they won't abuse their ability to remotely disconnect customers, and will only use this feature after going through the same process they would have for disconnecting a dumb meter. 

Be_Happy

here's a photo of our comfortplus control meter and rts set up.   Card says meter was replaced in 2011 so must be more modern version.

CSI_Yorkshire

Elisew said:

Does anyone know for definite
1: whether it's 2024 or is it 2025,
2: is it the 'COULD' and not 'Will' stop working and
3: Do I really have to change to a Smart Meter or can I just plod on with the digital 2 rate meter I already have?

1.  It's 2024 unless they delay it again.

2.  Could, and it's only a small chance.

3.  Any meter change will be to a smart meter.  Why don't you want one?  Have you been misled by one of the disproved theories that get spread around?

Gerry1

@Be_Happy The big black box on the extreme right looks like a Horstmann RTS which certainly won't be new.

JSHarris

Also those very ancient induction meters haven't been manufactured for domestic installations for probably a couple of decades now.  I'm guessing those date from around the 1980's from the look of them.

Sterlingtimes

I notice that the former France Inter continues to transmit what appears to be an unmodulated carrier on 162 kHz. I wonder whether that is to support a radio switching service in France. Perhaps Radio 4 will cease transmissions but continue to transmit for a limited period.

JSHarris

I think the R4 LW service is doomed, just because no one makes the transmitter valves any more.  They have a stock of old ones, but when the last one fails the transmitter will shut down.

There have been various attempts to resolve this, but the costs of replacing the transmitter with modern technology are just way too high for the small number of people that still listen to LW.  I remember years ago that one of the biggest lobby groups against closing R4 LW was the deep sea fishing community, who relied on R4 LW for weather forecasts, as well as news.  I rather think even their use case has been overtaken by satellite comms now.  That really leaves just small pockets of people in far off corners of the UK, outside the range of any FM or DAB transmitters.