Help Please - Problem with Plumber - What are our rights if any?

LV_426

twopenny said:

Good thing he isn't charges for the length of time he took to go on and on in that email!
Sounds very much like a well known plumber in my town.

Lol! I had the same thought.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Whiskas12 said:

b) You were issued with T&C's stating my terms in March 21 for the first job that I did for you, they are the criteria I work to and I don't do the work unless the client accepts them. It is not for you to dictate what or when you'll pay when you have already accepted the T&C's.

The plumber is incorrect on this point, there are information requirements for distance and off premises contracts.

The trader can not impose information from a previous contract upon you for a new a contract for obvious reasons and given the time between and the nature of the current issue it's clear the two pieces of work are not connected.

If you agreed over the phone (creating a distance contract) for the plumber to come out and have a look he should have explained over the phone either the cost or how it is to be calculated, e.g £70 an hour, £70 call out + labour, £70 call out with 30 mins labour included, etc, etc as well as some other basic information. 

As soon as reasonably possible but before the service has commenced the plumber should have then given you confirmation of the contract concluded via a durable medium which would be required to include all the required information which again includes the cost or how it is to be calculated. 

I doubt the plumber will take you to court, if he did you'd have a technicality to base a defence upon but for £70 it's not worth all the headache. 

Can't comment on whether he actually did anything worthy of payment as he sort of did but sort of didn't, do you live somewhere rural OP? Generally I'd expect a tradesperson to nip to the nearest merchant, buy the part and fix the problem.

Section62

tonygold said:

I work in people's houses and have jobs that require more than one visit. These do need to be paid for but...... what a terribly worded email he has sent to you. Absolutely no customer relations within it. Horrible. If it were me, I would pay it and tell him exactly what you think of his bedside manner and explain that you will get another tradesman to complete the job (probably easy enough for you or a friend to DIY it).

Put it down to a bad experience and move on. Life's too short.

You don't know what he was replying to.

Section62

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

As for buying the part, sometimes traders suggest the client buys parts/materials - particularly specialist ones - because that way the client isn't paying for the trader's time to source the part and handle collection/delivery (plus potentially returns).  Or would you suggest traders should always spend time buying parts/materials without charging for their time?

For £70 p/h that plumbers charge currently, part of which is to cover ancillary costs. Yes.

Do you know of any plumbers who include the time for sourcing bespoke parts within their hourly rate, as an "ancillary cost"?

Most traders would expect to be paid for their time to go to the builders merchants etc if there is stuff needed to do a job. What they won't do (generally) is to charge you for the fuel to get there, or for wear and tear on their vehicle.

benson1980

Section62 said:

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

As for buying the part, sometimes traders suggest the client buys parts/materials - particularly specialist ones - because that way the client isn't paying for the trader's time to source the part and handle collection/delivery (plus potentially returns).  Or would you suggest traders should always spend time buying parts/materials without charging for their time?

For £70 p/h that plumbers charge currently, part of which is to cover ancillary costs. Yes.

Do you know of any plumbers who include the time for sourcing bespoke parts within their hourly rate, as an "ancillary cost"?

Most traders would expect to be paid for their time to go to the builders merchants etc if there is stuff needed to do a job. What they won't do (generally) is to charge you for the fuel to get there, or for wear and tear on their vehicle.

Erm yes I have most definitely had the scenario whereby I pay an hourly rate and the plumber has gone away to source a bespoke part to fix the problem- without separately invoicing me for their time at the plumbers merchants/calling them etc. What I have not come across is buying my own part for a job they've surveyed and spec'd, for them to return and complete. That's just my experience.

Section62

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

As for buying the part, sometimes traders suggest the client buys parts/materials - particularly specialist ones - because that way the client isn't paying for the trader's time to source the part and handle collection/delivery (plus potentially returns).  Or would you suggest traders should always spend time buying parts/materials without charging for their time?

For £70 p/h that plumbers charge currently, part of which is to cover ancillary costs. Yes.

Do you know of any plumbers who include the time for sourcing bespoke parts within their hourly rate, as an "ancillary cost"?

Most traders would expect to be paid for their time to go to the builders merchants etc if there is stuff needed to do a job. What they won't do (generally) is to charge you for the fuel to get there, or for wear and tear on their vehicle.

Erm yes I have most definitely had the scenario whereby I pay an hourly rate and the plumber has gone away to source a bespoke part to fix the problem- without separately invoicing me for their time at the plumbers merchants/calling them etc. What I have not come across is buying my own part for a job they've surveyed and spec'd, for them to return and complete. That's just my experience.

I didn't say anything about invoicing separately for those hours.  But that the hours spent buying stuff could be included in the total charged for.

Apodemus

Section62 said:

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

benson1980 said:

Section62 said:

As for buying the part, sometimes traders suggest the client buys parts/materials - particularly specialist ones - because that way the client isn't paying for the trader's time to source the part and handle collection/delivery (plus potentially returns).  Or would you suggest traders should always spend time buying parts/materials without charging for their time?

For £70 p/h that plumbers charge currently, part of which is to cover ancillary costs. Yes.

Do you know of any plumbers who include the time for sourcing bespoke parts within their hourly rate, as an "ancillary cost"?

Most traders would expect to be paid for their time to go to the builders merchants etc if there is stuff needed to do a job. What they won't do (generally) is to charge you for the fuel to get there, or for wear and tear on their vehicle.

Erm yes I have most definitely had the scenario whereby I pay an hourly rate and the plumber has gone away to source a bespoke part to fix the problem- without separately invoicing me for their time at the plumbers merchants/calling them etc. What I have not come across is buying my own part for a job they've surveyed and spec'd, for them to return and complete. That's just my experience.

I didn't say anything about invoicing separately for those hours.  But that the hours spent buying stuff could be included in the total charged for.

Yes, last time I called a plumber out, he disappeared for four hours to buy a stopvalve at the plumbers merchant 7 miles away...then decided to charge me for the four hours at emergency call-out rates.  As I say, it was the last time I called out a plumber!

deano2099

Section62 said:

benson1980 said:

He stipulated in his own T+Cs, or at least the old ones, that you will be invoiced on completion for smaller jobs. This is definitely a smaller job so why has this changed. The work hasn't been completed yet. 

The plumber is treating the initial visit to diagnose the problem and ensure the OP has a workaround as a 'job', and has completed that.

If the OP obtained the spare part and - as some have suggested here - fitted it themselves, then would you expect the plumber to wait an infinite amount of time to get paid for the initial work, on the basis that they had never returned to complete the job?

There is no absolute right or wrong on this.  The "job" is whatever is agreed between the trader and the client, which includes whatever the trader's T&C's say.

As for buying the part, sometimes traders suggest the client buys parts/materials - particularly specialist ones - because that way the client isn't paying for the trader's time to source the part and handle collection/delivery (plus potentially returns).  Or would you suggest traders should always spend time buying parts/materials without charging for their time?

I think the issue is the client didn't ask for a workaround (this appears to have been offered unsolicited, and probably as he would have felt guilty invoicing £70 for five minutes' work). The client asked to diagnose and fix. 
A callout charge is fair but a "minimum of an hour" charge seems silly. I'd have been looking for other stuff for him to look at in the spare 45 minutes. Or y'know, asked him to order the part himself in the spare 45 minutes he had!

LV_426

Apodemus said:

Yes, last time I called a plumber out, he disappeared for four hours to buy a stopvalve at the plumbers merchant 7 miles away...then decided to charge me for the four hours at emergency call-out rates.  As I say, it was the last time I called out a plumber!

Wow! Did you pay it?

Risteard

deano2099 said:

Section62 said:

benson1980 said:

He stipulated in his own T+Cs, or at least the old ones, that you will be invoiced on completion for smaller jobs. This is definitely a smaller job so why has this changed. The work hasn't been completed yet. 

The plumber is treating the initial visit to diagnose the problem and ensure the OP has a workaround as a 'job', and has completed that.

If the OP obtained the spare part and - as some have suggested here - fitted it themselves, then would you expect the plumber to wait an infinite amount of time to get paid for the initial work, on the basis that they had never returned to complete the job?

There is no absolute right or wrong on this.  The "job" is whatever is agreed between the trader and the client, which includes whatever the trader's T&C's say.

As for buying the part, sometimes traders suggest the client buys parts/materials - particularly specialist ones - because that way the client isn't paying for the trader's time to source the part and handle collection/delivery (plus potentially returns).  Or would you suggest traders should always spend time buying parts/materials without charging for their time?

I think the issue is the client didn't ask for a workaround (this appears to have been offered unsolicited, and probably as he would have felt guilty invoicing £70 for five minutes' work). The client asked to diagnose and fix. 
A callout charge is fair but a "minimum of an hour" charge seems silly. I'd have been looking for other stuff for him to look at in the spare 45 minutes. Or y'know, asked him to order the part himself in the spare 45 minutes he had!

How exactly is a one hour minimum charge "silly"?