UKPC Court Case

Merlin2022

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum, so I hope this is in the right place. 

In early 2020 I parked in a public house car-park that is controlled by UKPC, and subsequently got a ticket.
Without going into too much detail, I was a patron at the public house, but was unaware of the requirement to register my vehicle at the bar, and with it being a pitch black winters evening, I didn't see any of the small and low level signage (none of which was illuminated, and all of which would be very hard to see in darkness/behind parked cars). There was no reminder, or signage inside the pub, although I suspect that is largely irrelevant. 
The parking ticket I received used grainy images from their CCTV of my car entering and exiting the car-park (as opposed to photographs taken manually by an attendant). The images capture my headlights and number plate only, with the rest of the image being pure blackness (it is a dark car-park with next to no lighting). You would not be able to work out what car it was, let alone where it is parked (although I am not disputing this). They have not provided any images showing the surrounding area, or more crucially the signage at the time. 

I ignored all correspondence until the 'letter before claim' and subsequent county 'court claim form'. I then submitted a defense within the required timescales, following the guidance set out in the newbie threads and using the template defence (amending paragraphs 2 & 3 to suit the details of my case). I have admitted being the registered keeper of the car, and parking at the car-park at the date and time claimed, which is all true. 

I then received a letter from UKPC's solicitors stating that their client intends to go ahead with the case, but  notwithstanding this, they would offer a further 7 day period for me to contact UKPC directly and "settle out of court". They also included a copy of a small claims court questionnaire, presumably to try and show they are serious.  I intend to ignore this correspondence, as I do not wish to negotiate a settlement (which I would presume would consist of them expecting full settlement of the sum they believe they are owed).

What I would really appreciate guidance on from the experts on this forum, is what happens next? 

I believe I will be asked to send evidence substantiating my earlier defence letter, and then if there both claimant and defendant stand firm then a court date will be agreed and it will be decided in that way. I have very little appreciation of how any such court proceeding would play out, and what to expect? 

I am also quite surprised that UKPC are (seemingly) willing to take this to court for a single parking ticket. Is there a chance they will drop this case before it goes to court, or are we passed that stage in all probability? Having re-visited the car-park recently, even now, I do not believe there is sufficient signage in place, with the majority of it being concealed by overgrown vegetation and other parked cars. Not a single on of their signs is illuminated, or at high level.  They also don't appear to have an image of my car showing the signage in the same image, which I would have thought would be crucial for their claim. 

Any help/guidance would be much appreciated. 

Many thanks in advance. 

Fruitcake

What happened when you complained to the pub manager/brewery chain CEO, and your MP? It is not too late to get a cancellation.

The guide to court written by bargepole that you will find in the second post of the NEWBIES Announcement, and the twelve step guide in the template defence Announcement tells you what to expect and how to respond.

Have you received the N180 directions questionnaire from the court yet? That should be the next stage some time after submitting the defence. Never use any forms sent to you by the claimant. Only use the one from the court, or one you have downloaded.

You will need to provide a witness statement and exhibits/evidence later in the process, but there is nothing stopping you beginning to compile this now.

Where did the alleged event occur? It may have cropped up here before.

Which solicitor is being used? Gladstones or DCB Legal?

Nobody can predict whether UKPC will take this all the way, but there is currently another thread running on the former where a list is being complied of the number of cases being dropped at the last minute. This will be put to the government to show how PPCs are using UK courts as a cheap form of debt collection, but being unreasonable by dropping vexatious claims as the hearing date approaches.

DCB LEGAL RECORD OF PRIVATE PARKING COURT CLAIM DISCONTINUATIONS — MoneySavingExpert Forum

patient_dream

As said above, if you can, go back to the pub to get this cancelled
UKPC signs in general are rubbish and if not illuminated at night how would anyone know. There should be clear signs in the pub warning you to enter your reg nnumber and staff should be trained to advise.

The pub has been very foolish taking on a parking company, it will destroy their business . You will not be alone for this pub

If you can go back, get some night time pictures of the signs to prove they are not illuminated and the entrance to the pub

I assume the legal is DCBL ?   They have now taken over from UKPC and there is no reason to play games with UKPC

If DCBL were so convinced they would win in court why would they want you to go back to UKPC ?   Because in general UKPC cases are rubbish,, DCBL face a spanking in court. This is why they are doing this .....

DCB LEGAL RECORD OF PRIVATE PARKING COURT CLAIM DISCONTINUATIONS

A UKPC/DCB Legal pattern is now emerging

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6377263/dcb-legal-record-of-private-parking-court-claim-discontinuations/p1

Your dealings are now with DCBL

Merlin2022

Fruitcake said:

What happened when you complained to the pub manager/brewery chain CEO, and your MP? It is not too late to get a cancellation.

The guide to court written by bargepole that you will find in the second post of the NEWBIES Announcement, and the twelve step guide in the template defence Announcement tells you what to expect and how to respond.

Have you received the N180 directions questionnaire from the court yet? That should be the next stage some time after submitting the defence. Never use any forms sent to you by the claimant. Only use the one from the court, or one you have downloaded.

You will need to provide a witness statement and exhibits/evidence later in the process, but there is nothing stopping you beginning to compile this now.

Where did the alleged event occur? It may have cropped up here before.

Which solicitor is being used? Gladstones or DCB Legal?

Nobody can predict whether UKPC will take this all the way, but there is currently another thread running on the former where a list is being complied of the number of cases being dropped at the last minute. This will be put to the government to show how PPCs are using UK courts as a cheap form of debt collection, but being unreasonable by dropping vexatious claims as the hearing date approaches.

DCB LEGAL RECORD OF PRIVATE PARKING COURT CLAIM DISCONTINUATIONS — MoneySavingExpert Forum

Thank you for your reply.
The pub in question is the Red Lion in Wooburn Green, Bucks. They offer no help in getting the ticket cancelled unfortunately, and this seems to be the same for everyone whi has suffered the same fate as myself. 

I have not yet received the court questionnaire, but presume this will come next as you say. 

It is DCB Legal, which is interesting given the other threads monitoring similar cases, many of which appear to have been discontinued. 

Merlin2022

patient_dream said:

As said above, if you can, go back to the pub to get this cancelled
UKPC signs in general are rubbish and if not illuminated at night how would anyone know. There should be clear signs in the pub warning you to enter your reg nnumber and staff should be trained to advise.

The pub has been very foolish taking on a parking company, it will destroy their business . You will not be alone for this pub

If you can go back, get some night time pictures of the signs to prove they are not illuminated and the entrance to the pub

I assume the legal is DCBL ?   They have now taken over from UKPC and there is no reason to play games with UKPC

If DCBL were so convinced they would win in court why would they want you to go back to UKPC ?   Because in general UKPC cases are rubbish,, DCBL face a spanking in court. This is why they are doing this .....

DCB LEGAL RECORD OF PRIVATE PARKING COURT CLAIM DISCONTINUATIONS

A UKPC/DCB Legal pattern is now emerging

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6377263/dcb-legal-record-of-private-parking-court-claim-discontinuations/p1

Your dealings are now with DCBL

Thanks for your reply. 
Yes, it's DCB Legal. 

As you predicted, I am not alone when it comes to the parking scenario at this pub, and they are indeed crazy to get in bed with UKPC (especially when their car-park is oversized and predominantly always empty). Tripadvisor has many negative reviews from customers who have suffered the same fate, many referencing the lack of signage and pitch black car-park. 

Very interesting existing threads on DCBL. The fact they offer another chance to settle direct with UKPC immediately made me think this is a final throw of the dice to try and scare people into paying up. 

I appreciate there is always a chance of them taking it to court, but you would think they would cherry pick high value cases with numerous outstanding tickets, and where there case is strong. None of that criteria applied in my case!

Merlin2022

I have revisited the car-park recently and already have images capturing the following:

• Car-park vehicular entrance with no visible UKPC signage 
• Front pedestrian entrance of public house with no visible UKPC signage 
• Rear pedestrian entrance of public house with no visible UKPC signage 
• Low level UKPC signage which is not illuminated, and would be obscured by a car parked in one of the designated spaces (this applies to all but one sign) 
• Car-park notices put up by the public house (not UKPC) which state the car-park is for patrons only (but make no reference to UKPC or the need to register your vehicle)
• Car-Park notice put up by the public house (not UKPC) at low level, reminding you to register, completely concealed by overgrown vegetation. 

I intend to make a visit at night and get further images to demonstrate how none of the signs can be seen in the dark. 

Are there any other suggestions for evidence? I can get a plan of the car-park from Google earth and mark the locations of the signage etc. 

I would have thought UKPC/DCBL would need to demonstrate that there is suitable illuminated signage if this went to court, which I don't see how they can do. They would also surely need an image of my car with said illuminated signage visible, to price it was in place at the time of the 'offence' ? Again, I don't think they have this (if they had it, they would surely included it in previous correspondence. 

patient_dream

A pub who hates customers ?   there are a few around and there is no doubt they are losing customers and in the current climate could go bust

Have you told the story to the local newspaper to warn people not to go the pub, that normally gets a reaction

Here is a similar case albiet a different parking scammer

Landlord's woe as car park fine scheme backlash nearly calls time on his pub
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/loggerheads-mold-car-park-fines-13774891

It is highly possible that the landlord at the Red Lion is on a share of the action

No doubt DCBL will issue a court claim as one final scare but the penny will drop that's it a rubbish case

patient_dream

It gets worse ,,,,, if there are no UKPC signs UKPC CANNOT ISSUE TICKETS

The question is do UKPC still operate in the car park and if not, that is why the landlord cannot cancel
From your explanation, it seems these are just pubs signs now which at best could be deemed as trespass by the landlord

Your ticket is over 2 years old, find out if UKPC still operate or did the landlord kick them out

Merlin2022

patient_dream said:

It gets worse ,,,,, if there are no UKPC signs UKPC CANNOT ISSUE TICKETS

The question is do UKPC still operate in the car park and if not, that is why the landlord cannot cancel
From your explanation, it seems these are just pubs signs now which at best could be deemed as trespass by the landlord

Your ticket is over 2 years old, find out if UKPC still operate or did the landlord kick them out

There are UKPC signs, albeit they are completely insufficient in terms of size, quantity, positioning & illumination. 
UKPC definitely still operate in the car-park as of now. 

My point was that the pub itself also has it's own signage up, meaning it is entirely conceivable that you could see the pub sign that says "Car Park for Patrons Use Only" and  consider that as you are indeed a patron you are safe to park there without searching in the dark behind parked cars and bushes for further (UKPC) signs that you didn't know were there. The pub sign also makes no reference for the need to register your vehicle.

It is, in my opinion, ambiguous and expects far too much from paying customers to go searching for hidden signs, when there are pub signs up that state the car park is there specifically & exclusively to serve patrons. 

Fruitcake

As usual, the £100 charge is buried in small print which is a breach of the BPA's CoP, but despite years of complaints to the BPA, they have failed to instruct UKPC to bring the signs up to code.

Merlin2022

Indeed. I don't actually think the sign is clear in any respect, and would require a close inspection (probably crouching down) to even be able to read the crucial element involving registering ones vehicle. 

Are they entitled to charge £100? 
It was my understanding that (outside of London) they could claim a maximum of £60, reduced to £45 if payment was made in 14 days?