Who will pay

brewerdave

Mstty said:

I welcome a couple of hours blackout so that people become aware of the situation we are in.

Fed up with the suger coating and everyone expecting energy for free or heavily discounted.

We need some pain first for everyone to realise the issue and to cut back and run their lives efficiently.

Education on energy efficiency, grants to improve poor EPC properties and targeted help for those that really need it.

For the rest it will be tough times, maybe no holidays for a couple of years but I would rather a couple of years of pain compared to decades of paying back debt.

The answer is not to throw endless money at buying energy that money should be spent so we don't need to import that expensive energy and yes we may suffer for that in the short term.

Agree with much of this - but throwing money at insulation in a hurry ,will just see the cowboys rubbing their hands together in glee, and a huge increase in junk calls from scammers posing as "Government Energy Advisers" !!

Mstty

Yeah I struggled to type that bit as well knowing the cowboy firms that recently installed two gas Ch systems for two of our flats under a grant scheme for the people living there on UC. The install was horrendous and not finished properly but the combi and radiators are in we will just make good.

Astria

macman said:

It is inconceivable that domestic power cuts will come before industrial ones, just for reasons of political expediency.
No gov't is going to risk losing votes by having a domestic blackout.

The gov't are particular good at doing things and blaming them on other things though so you don't blame them directly though.

littleteapot

There's no easy solution.  A few 1-2 hour residential blackouts are what is needed to get people's attention to the gravity of this issue as we have taken energy for granted for too many decades now. Such short duration won't put otherwise healthy people in any danger, even in the coldest months.

There needs to be a way to ensure that the vulnerable (e.g. people with mental or degenerative illnesses who would get very scared if the lights suddenly went out) and those who require a constant supply for medical devices are protected in some way. I would hope that the latter have some sort of battery backup built-in but I don't know. This will be a challenge.

Crippling industry with power cuts is probably the worst thing we can possibly do when the country is already bankrupt and most businesses are facing extreme cost rises which may already tip their balance books over the edge. But as we know very well the government will do whatever is most palatable to the most active groups of voters rather than what is good for the country, sadly.

tghe-retford

We're not talking of the odd device turned off here, an extra layer there. We're talking in levels of the savings needed would require poor and low paid households to turn off their gas and electric completely. Even the prospect of people having to live in shared housing in large groups or emigration to a cheaper country.

We're potentially talking of turning off terrestrial television multiplexes and analogue radio to save energy.

And if to save energy we are asked to work three days a week and take a 40% pay cut, all bets are off.

Is this the new normal, the future standard of living that humanity should be aspiring to? Is this progress, to reverse decades of human progression and technology? Humans solve problems, they don't regress and admit defeat. We certainly don't tell people to stare at a wall, freeze, eat gruel and suggest they should be thankful for it. Our opponents in the world will be laughing at us while they fire up their coal and gas power plants spewing out carbon with abandon while we cling on to virtue by sacrificing everything we stood for.

EssexHebridean

macman said:

It is inconceivable that domestic power cuts will come before industrial ones, just for reasons of political expediency.
No gov't is going to risk losing votes by having a domestic blackout.
The days are gone when you could sit in the dark, listen to the battery radio, and still make toast on the gas fire: modern homes are dependent on an uninterrupted power supply. 
No heating (whether gas or electric), no hot water, no wi-fi, no VOIP phones...

That last is already causing massive issues in some places - there are chunks of the Hebrides that have been switched over to the new system. They are also areas that regularly experience power outages due to extreme weather. (By "regularly" I mean that each and every time we've visited in the winter months - never for more than 2 weeks a time, we have had some form of power cut for anywhere between a few minutes and a few hours - and we're fortunate that has been the longest!) Lack of power for TV's, wifi and the kids playstation is not a huge issue. Lack of facility to cook or heat is more significant, but absolute lack of ability to make a 999 call should one be required is another thing entirely. 

littleteapot

Sadly it does seem like the 'new normal'. We are now paying for the last 3 decades of personal greed and lack of investment.

As you say, there are much bigger countries which will happily keep building new fossil power plants whilst western europe (and us) have run down all ours. History shows that every empire has its day. Western Europe and the UK have had their peaks in the 1800s to 1900s, and now it's time for east asia and possibly also south asia to have their turn as the dominant empires.

Section62

MattMattMattUK said:

I agree, the public also need to realise that it is better for domestic power cuts than cuts to industry. A few evenings without the TV is far better for the economy than industrial output dropping. 

I think it depends on the degree of planning though.  There has already been much work done with industry on DSR.  If industries that can shift their demand do so intelligently, the impact on industrial output doesn't have to be so great.

There is also a vast amount of waste in business and industry - all the local supermarkets around here that used to open 24 hours but stopped doing so during the pandemic still have their lights burning away all night - not just in the store, but also in the car parks.  Likewise, a drive through the commercial areas at night will treat you to a very pretty display of lit-up but empty office buildings.  Switching off that lighting (and possibly air-con too) would reduce demand with zero adverse impact on productivity.

Section62

tghe-retford said:

We're not talking of the odd device turned off here, an extra layer there. We're talking in levels of the savings needed would require poor and low paid households to turn off their gas and electric completely. Even the prospect of people having to live in shared housing in large groups or emigration to a cheaper country.

We're potentially talking of turning off terrestrial television multiplexes and analogue radio to save energy.

And if to save energy we are asked to work three days a week and take a 40% pay cut, all bets are off.

I think you are in danger of crossing the line into scaremongering with comments like those.

Section62

littleteapot said:

Crippling industry with power cuts is probably the worst thing we can possibly do when the country is already bankrupt and most businesses are facing extreme cost rises which may already tip their balance books over the edge.

The country isn't bankrupt.

Businesses "facing extreme cost rises" can alleviate some of the impact by reducing their consumption, and in some cases by reducing production. Both of which would help with reducing demand on the energy grids. In some circumstances making less is more profitable than carrying on like everything is normal.

"Crippling industry with power cuts" is overemotive.