Didnt pay to drop someone off at Gatwick airport: Do I have a defence?

bamme89

Great, sent! Fingers crossed. 

Just a small bit of info which may be useful to others - my PDF file was too large for an email attachment. Adobe offer a free PDF compression tool here: https://www.adobe.com/acrobat/online/compress-pdf.html

Thanks again guys so much. Will keep you updated!

ln1234

I am going through something similar for Gatwick drop off with BW Legal. Any chance you could upload your pack in word format so I could amend it for my case please? Much appreciated!

Coupon-mad

ln1234 said:

I am going through something similar for Gatwick drop off with BW Legal. Any chance you could upload your pack in word format so I could amend it for my case please? Much appreciated!

The transcripts I suggested won't be in word format and your case is only similar (and the extra exhibits I suggested are only relevant) if you were not driving.

ln1234

Yes, it's pretty much the same. Got dropped off at Gatwick (wasn't driving, but am the registered keeper), and had a flight. Is it available in any editable format so I can remove the bits that aren't relevant? If this can't be shared then i'll copy and paste as necessary, but thought it might be easier. Cheers!

bamme89

ln1234 said:

Yes, it's pretty much the same. Got dropped off at Gatwick (wasn't driving, but am the registered keeper), and had a flight. Is it available in any editable format so I can remove the bits that aren't relevant? If this can't be shared then i'll copy and paste as necessary, but thought it might be easier. Cheers!

Hey! I actually only saved the redacted version as a PDF, I have the original with all personal details in as a word doc, but here is how I converted the other WS templates I used myself for my draft  https://www.pdfsmart.com/en/convert-pdf-to-word?gclid=CjwKCAiAwc-dBhA7EiwAxPRylJj3Q4cLFfKhGnC0ORIH2VUKfcr7eeILGez55Qm3OPulOvmslOSqIRoCTh8QAvD_BwE its free 

I also extracted all the exhibits from other WS templates and made them .jpgs, there are a fair few, I have labelled and put these plus the screenshots I got from google streetview here for you to put into your Word doc, as this is what took the most time (might take a few min from time of me posting this for them all to be uploaded: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p0bwqr65f3o2aa4/AAAHLPOQzlceUS47Rzu08FhHa?dl=0

ln1234

Thank you for sharing! thats very helpful

Coupon-mad

Both of you please have in your head at your hearings, that Excel v Smith is not a precedent BUT that case judgment (unlike Lamoureux) is 'persuasive' on the lower courts, because it deals with the exact same fact and rule of law and was decided by HHJ Smith on appeal, after a District Judge wrongly just 'assumed' that a keeper could be held liable anyway under a twisted interpretation of the law of agency.

If that were true, there would have been no need for the legislation in Schedule 4 of the POFA!

...which deliberately excluded Airports and other byelaws land, on the basis that the byelaws regulate movement of vehicles, and byelaws prevail.

Assume your Judge won't have read anything.

Be ready to point out 'Excel v Smith a exhibit xx is persuasive on this fact and rule of law' if the Judge tries to dismiss your exhibits as 'just another country court decision that's not binding on me' (true of Lamoureux but it's a good one as the Judge explains the issue well).

bamme89

hi all! a week to go til my hearing, if you guys dont mind I have a couple of questions mostly about the no keeper liability argument I made in my WS thanks to you guys help.

1. I would like to check I fully understand why the parking firm cannot pursue me without proof I am driving. So, in my own words, am I right that this is this airport already has statutory controls in relation to the parking of vehicles (i.e. bylaws applying to airports), and this excludes it from schedule 4 of the POFA 2012? Logically therefore Schedule 4 is what details the right of a parking firm to pursue the keeper for a fine?

2. This one is worrying me!!!  I feel this is my strongest point so I wanted to cover my back completely here. In a photo provided with the SAR showing the car exiting the forecourt, a man with a beard is 100% driving. But in the 2 photos with the car entering, it is not as clear. So I enhanced the brightness and contrast of the photos. 

It is far too long ago for me to actually remember if there was a third person in the car, but a beard is not clearly seen it doesn’t look like the same person and so this leaves room for doubt I suppose? Feel a bit silly not having done this before but here we are. I did not arrange to meet anyone at the airport at all or to have anyone take the car, so there must have been at least 2 people.

I guess the only thing I can do if asked is just explain that? Could they disregard my point completely if the man with the beard is not there, as I have stated the photo shows a man with a beard driving?

It actually doesn’t look like anyone is in the passenger seat in these 2 unclear photos, as it is too dark even with the contrast and brightness up. Someone must have been, even if there were 3 people - there is very little room in the back of this type of car for even one other person plus bags. So perhaps I could argue this, that the quality too low to actually be sure, as you cannot even see any resemblance of a person in the passenger seat even though there had to be someone in there.

And a couple random questions also:

3. I read this in a part of the newbie thread: “If the PPC (pretty commonly!) DISCONTINUES shortly before the hearing…”

How would I know if it was discontinued?? I am hopeful, even though I have just a week to go, but have had nothing in the post.

4. Do I bring my WS or any other documents with me other than a crib sheet of my points and related parts of my WS?

5. When is suitable (if I win) to ask for my costs as detailed in my WS, and who do I ask? The judge? Or in writing after etc?

B789

Stop worrying about the ANPR pictures. They cannot be used to identify anyone. Their use is only for number plate recognition. How on earth could anyone know who the picture of the driver is? Do you honestly think that some random legal rep who has had a few hours, if that, to read through the papers is going to have a Eureka moment and yell out "It's you!!!".

Regarding point 1... As long as the driver's identity has not been revealed, if the PPC does not know the identity of the driver then who are they going to pursue if the PCN is not PoFA compliant, whether because you were on land covered by byelaws or it was not compliant for any other reason?

3... if your claim is from UKPC/DCB Legal then there is a good chance it will be discontinued. Other PPC/solicitor combos could also discontinue if their case is weak, your defence is strong ad you were not a gullible victim who folds at the thought of court.

4... Take a paper copy of your WS and evidence to court with you just in case the claimant tries the old trick of saying they never received it. You can then give them a copy.

5... You ask the judge for your costs at the time if you win.

You will know the case has been discontinueed when you receive a letter saying so.

bamme89

B789 said:

Stop worrying about the ANPR pictures. They cannot be used to identify anyone. Their use is only for number plate recognition. How on earth could anyone know who the picture of the driver is? Do you honestly think that some random legal rep who has had a few hours, if that, to read through the papers is going to have a Eureka moment and yell out "It's you!!!".

This made me laugh actually. Not for a few hundred quid saved on their part, I guess not!! I suppose I am just nervous. Thank you for the reassurance.

Re the discontinuation thats great thank you. I am just wondering because I never received the claimant's witness statement. I read in a post where someone helpfully shared their crib sheet (here) that they've made the point that the claimant's witness statement was submitted later than requested. I assume therefore they (the defendant) got a copy.