Didnt pay to drop someone off at Gatwick airport: Do I have a defence?

bamme89

hi all, its my first post here after studying the newbie thread and template defence thread about fighting private carpark fines! I failed to pay to drop someone off at Gatwick airport. I am at claim form stage of this pcn, I got a claim response pack. The amount they are asking is £250. To me, this seems extortionate based on the fact I would have been there maximum 5-10 mins and the amount I apparently had to pay was £5. This was some time ago, but from what I can remember there wasn't a clear sign 

1. Do I even have a defence?

This was some time ago, I dont remember even being aware I had to pay to drop someone off, £5 is a rip off but not an amount I could not have afforded. 

I can't remember if there was adequate signage about paying. I do remember there was very poor signage around the car park and we were really confused about where to even go to park.  I did read somewhere tha by law since 2021 there has to be a 10 minute grace period to allow you to read the signage, I would have been there that amount of time absolute max in total including unloading cases. But I'm not sure if this really holds up. 

I did not update my address with the right people when I unexpectedly had to move house, and had no access to the property where the letters were going. My personal circumstances were extremely difficult at that time but I know this is irrelevant and therefore my reason for not getting the letters or paying just seems inadequate. 

So yeah.. do I even have a defence? If there are others with similar reason it would be great to get any links to their defences.

EDIT: I am now aware that as a keeper I am not liable to pay this PCN - at the time of first writing I wrote in first person because it seemed simpler and I thought I was still liable, but I was not driving.

2. Am I looking at the right defence template?

I have been studying the template defence thread here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6108153/suggested-template-defence-to-adapt-for-all-parking-charge-cases-where-they-add-false-admin-costs/p1

I see quite a few references within this thread to highlighted parts and red parts of the template defence - all I am able to access is the plain text template in post 2 of the thread which has no red highlights. I have scanned for external links but I cannot see any that indicate a word or pdf template except links that are broken and therefore I assume are old. Am I missing where the template with red parts and highlighted parts is?

Thanks so much for all you guys time and effort!

Fruitcake

Read the fifth post of the NEWBIES and print or write out acronyms and abbreviations common to this forum before you start.

What is the issue date on the claim form you have received?
Do not complete the AoS until day six at the earliest in order to get the maximum time to deal with the claim. DO NOT put anything in the Defence "box" on MCOL. You will send your defence later by email to the CCBC.

What is the name of the claimant, and their solicitors please?

You have found the correct defence template in post 2 of the thread you linked to.

Use the twelve step guide in post 1 of that thread to ensure you follow the correct process.
Use it in conjunction with the guide to court written by bargepole that you will find in the second post of the NEWBIES sticky Announcement.

Amend paragraphs 2 and 3 of the defence template to suit your case. Post them on this thread for the regulars to check before you submit your defence to the CCBC.

Send an SAR to the claimant as per the NEWBIES advice. The response will not arrive in time to help you with the defence, but will be useful at the witness statement and exhibits stage.

Use Google Streetview to see if there are any useful images from around the time of the alleged event.

Coupon-mad

Which red parts of the template defence?  It pretty much is all in plain text I think?...

Which PPC and which solicitor?

What is the issue date on the claim form you have received?

Fruitcake

C-m, I think the OP is talking about other posts in the thread that refer to your 2020 version of the defence template. That earlier version had red comments indicating that they should be changed to suit an individual case.

bamme89, only refer to posts 1 and 2 of the template defence thread. Both posts are up to date whereas the rest of the thread is old and has not been updated.
Ignore everything after post 2 of that thread.

bamme89

Hi thank you for your replies!

The issue date on the claim form is 28 July. I submitted an Aos according to the instructions in the newbie thread yesterday. I believe I therefore have until 30 aug to put in a defence?

The PPC I think is National Car Parks (EUK)
The solicitor is BW Legal

Fruitcake

bamme89 said:

Hi thank you for your replies!

The issue date on the claim form is 28 July. I submitted an Aos according to the instructions in the newbie thread yesterday. I believe I therefore have until 30 aug to put in a defence?

The PPC I think is National Car Parks (EUK)
The solicitor is BW Legal

You need to be certain of this.

KeithP

bamme89 said:

The issue date on the claim form is 28 July. I submitted an Aos according to the instructions in the newbie thread yesterday. I believe I therefore have until 30 aug to put in a defence?

With a Claim Issue Date of 28th July, and having filed an Acknowledgment of Service in a timely manner, you are right, you have until 4pm on Tuesday 30th August 2022 to file your Defence.

That's nearly three weeks away. Plenty of time to produce a Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.

To create a Defence, and then file a Defence by email, look at the second post in the NEWBIES thread.

Don't miss the deadline for filing a Defence.

Do not try and file a Defence via the MoneyClaimOnline website. Once an Acknowledgment of Service has been filed, the MCOL website should be treated as 'read only'.

bamme89

Thanks guys, I am now certain of the PPC it’s definitely national car parks (EUK). Thanks also for confirming I have some time to submit a defence

I am struggling to figure out if I have a defence though, given that I’ve missed the LBC stage and won’t get info from submitting an SAR til after the defence, and my lack of clarity over exactly what happened as described in my above post

i feel like my strongest point so far is the 10min grace period and the logic that if I had known about a £5 charge I’d have paid it as it’s not something I couldn’t have afforded. Are these strong enough points?

i cannot find any examples of similar situations, I have searched the forum for Gatwick airport PCN etc. to find similar defences but I can’t see any that match my situation

Fruitcake

The response to the SAR will be useful later on at the witness statement/exhibits stage.

NCP are BPA members, so look up grace periods in the BPA CoP that was in place at he time to see what it says.

If the driver didn't know there was a charge at the drop-off car park then the signs cannot have been adequate.

Airport Byelaws will apply at the site so it is not relevant land. You need to read Schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012 in order to understand this.
You will also need to see what byelaws say about parking and non-payment of a parking charge. 

Byelaws do not apply to a vehicle keeper, but this does not generally help if the keeper was the driver. The judge may ask the defendant who was driving so there is no point trying to hide behind "no keeper liability" if the keeper was driving. 
The wording of the byelaws themselves may however help. I'm not familiar with them myself, but failure to pay a parking fee is not a Railway Byelaw offence, so you need to see if Airport Byelaws apply to non payment.

Get photos of the site and signage. Use Google Streetview to see if there are any images taken around the time of the alleged event, or show what was in place beforehand.

Coupon-mad

bamme89 said:

Thanks guys, I am now certain of the PPC it’s definitely national car parks (EUK). Thanks also for confirming I have some time to submit a defence

I am struggling to figure out if I have a defence though, given that I’ve missed the LBC stage and won’t get info from submitting an SAR til after the defence, and my lack of clarity over exactly what happened as described in my above post

i feel like my strongest point so far is the 10min grace period and the logic that if I had known about a £5 charge I’d have paid it as it’s not something I couldn’t have afforded. Are these strong enough points?

i cannot find any examples of similar situations, I have searched the forum for Gatwick airport PCN etc. to find similar defences but I can’t see any that match my situation

Why not just search for Airport defence?

Not Gatwick specifically.

I am not sure why you are admitting to driving in a standard Airport defence, where the registered keeper can't be held liable.

bamme89

Fruitcake said:

Send an SAR to the claimant as per the NEWBIES advice. The response will not arrive in time to help you with the defence, but will be useful at the witness statement and exhibits stage.

Thank you, I have done this, do I also need to send an email to the solicitor as per the newbie thread here:

"As well as the SAR to the parking firm's DPO, also write another email, if they are using Gladstones, DCLegal, BW Legal or other solicitor.
Your email tells the solicitor:
(a) I am seeking debt advice but I deny any debt and the case must be put 'on hold' for not less than 30 days under the PAP for debt claims 2017.
(b) I have sent your client a SAR
(c) also confirm your correct 'address for service' if you've moved and the PPC has two addresses. "

Or in this case, as I am taking this step late so to speak (it being at CCBC stage and not LBC stage) does this not apply?