Old electric cars?

Herzlos

ontheroad1970 said:

Petriix said:

ontheroad1970 said:

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

GunJack said:

ComicGeek said:

Fortunately I haven't been desperate for a charge having a long range EV, but has meant planning other emergency stops off the motorway network 

..and I think this, for the likes of me and many many others, is part of the crux - I don't have time for such dalliences

...yet you ignore the crucial point: you only need to charge on route if you're driving beyond your total range. In most current EVs that's vanishingly rare for most driving patterns. If you genuinely need to charge then you have enormous flexibility. 

BUT, journeys on the motorway network are those where the journey is longer distance and en-route charging more likely to be needed.

It is not unusual for charging at the motorway services to be a bank of TESLA superchargers, far away from the amenity buildings plus a very small number of other EV charge points right next to the amenity buildings which is an inadequate provision and the location means that others will sometime park in those spaces even if not charging.

You're still approaching this from the point of view of an ICE driver. With an EV, it's a bit of a paradigm shift. You plan your charging stops based on the known reliable charging locations rather than simply rocking up at any services and assuming that a charger will be available. 

So on an infrequent trip that I do on average once a year.  South Wales to the Highlands.  How do you know which ones are reliable?  To woo ICE drivers, the capability of public charging needs to prove the common perception of unreliability wrong.  I don't think it's doing enough on that front.  If I have to get from say Ullapool to Heathrow do a work trip and then go back  to South Wales, then I need to have a reliable charging station.  You have to be able to drive into one and know they will be available.  No good having to try several.  

The alternative would be to have to stay in a hotel part way down to ensure that I can make my flight.  The cheap electricity isn't so cheep when you have to factor in unnecessary overnight stops. 

It does gave to 'just work' for the majority of people to make the switch.  I don't expect EV evangelists like yourself to take my word for it, and I don't believe the EV market entirely deserves the perception it has.  However, since motorway driving is generally not the best for efficiency for an EV, there does need to be more charging capacity on or near the motorway network.  It also has to be seen to be reliable.  

Quite simply: a little research before you travel. Zap-Map and Plugshare give you a decent idea. There are an increasing number of hubs with many more (new, high powered) chargers which inherently mean lower chances of long wait times.

But I do think people need to adapt rather than assume they can keep doing whatever they currently do in an ICE. Driving slower, stopping for longer, avoiding peak times etc all mitigate the main issues.

I've said it frequently. A once per year trip shouldn't be the overriding factor in your vehicle choice. You can hire a hybrid for ~ £250 for a week if you really can't break up that long journey. Otherwise consider booking a couple of nights on AirBnb and visiting some other places as part of your trip. Or divert via York as the new rapid charging hub is currently free; enjoy the town, go for lunch etc.

EVs definitely won't work for everyone at this point. If you don't have access to cheap home charging, if you regularly drive more than 300 miles in a day and have a time pressure, if you can't finance the purchase, or if you don't cover many miles in a year but semi-regularly do over 100 miles etc. then I wouldn't advise switching right now. Add in towing heavy loads and shift driving in a shared vehicle and a bunch of unusual driving patterns too.

However, for many (I've been criticised for suggesting most) and EV would save money overall. 

For the price of the hire I could fill up a Q7 twice.  You're too biased to be objective.  People aren't going to change over willingly until the perception changes.  ZapMap shows chargers not in use.  that doesn't mean they are working and genuinely available.  There needs to be far more availability for charging than at present, and soon.

True, but what you'd potentially save in the EV means you could hire a hybrid a couple of times a year and still save money.

What's the fuel cost of a Q7? 20p/mile? 
So even with a terrible 10p/mile from an EV you're cutting your fuel costs in half, and you'd save your £250 hybrid rental in 2,500 miles. On an average UK mileage of 7800 you could do that 3 times a year and still have change.

Though in all likelihood you'd just take the EV and stop a bit more often, and spend that £780 on nice meals, hotels or entertainment instead. 

Edit: Honest John real mpg puts the best Q7 at 38mpg which at £1.90/l would be 23p/mile, so it's an even bigger saving.

ontheroad1970

Petriix said:

The airbnb comment was specifically relating to the holiday to the Highlands: rather than rushing to get there, you can take all the uncertainty out of the equation by planning a night halfway. We did this in our old diesel when we drove to the south of France just to take in some scenery and avoid driving for a whole day.

This is a money saving forum. The suggestion of avoiding rapid charging where possible is about make it as cheap as possible. I run my EV at 1p per mile because I'm prepared to drive efficiently and optimise my use of free and low cost charging. There are obviously reasons for doing things differently, especially if someone else is paying.

Driving slower is like turning your heating down in that you'll use less energy overall. That's because air resistance increases at the square of velocity. 50mph uses ~ 40% less energy than 70mph over the same distance.

In practice, simply sticking with the vans at 60-65mph works out way more efficient than being on the open road at 70mph because you're moving in a column of air rather than punching a hole in it yourself. Likewise, accelerating gently, planning ahead and 'coasting' so that you avoid changing speed and preserve as much momentum as possible will be more efficient.

The infrastructure is far from perfect. So it massively saves time to plan. Zap-Map tells you whether chargers are reliable because people report broken chargers. More importantly there are some motorway services (or nearby charging hubs) have 8 or more new ultra rapid chargers whereas many locations just have 1 or 2. It's pretty simple to identify which sites are better in advance of travelling, and pretty naive not to.

Just because there are benefits to being aware, doesn't make it beyond the capacity of most people. But I've observed lots of new EV drivers making some avoidable mistakes by failing to plan around the limitations of the current charging network. 

The scenario was mine.  It's a situation I can often be in.  I go to Asia quite frequently and Europe.  I have been in North West England and in the Highlands before ahead of a business trip abroad.  I can sometimes have business in the UK on my return to the UK, so Heathrow will often be the only viable route rather than say leaving my car at Edinburgh or Glasgow, or Manchester, and then having to route back to those places.  

When it is possible too rely on EV charging being available in far more parking spaces than now, then this could be done.  I don't see hiring a hybrid as being a sensible alternative.  

When you can see far more working EV chargers at service areas - say at least 30% of spaces with a charger - I don't think the perception will improve.  That perception stopped me buying electric to replace my Mazda.  EVs are suitable for some, but nowhere near everyone - the perception is that it suits hardly anyone.  I know this isn't true, but until you can take it for granted that you will find a vacant working charger, then the perception will still hang around.

Martyn1981

ontheroad1970 said:

When you can see far more working EV chargers at service areas - say at least 30% of spaces with a charger - I don't think the perception will improve.  That perception stopped me buying electric to replace my Mazda.  EVs are suitable for some, but nowhere near everyone - the perception is that it suits hardly anyone.  I know this isn't true, but until you can take it for granted that you will find a vacant working charger, then the perception will still hang around.

[My bold.] Couldn't agree more, great statement, and the paragraph as a whole.

Hopefully positive comments, suggesting solutions to serious problems, or explaining how some issues are smaller than perception suggests, will help.

I'd like to suggest that the ultra-fast network of chargers will improve enough to get ahead of the curve, but sadly, I assume that it will expand behind the rollout of BEV's. So always somewhat poor. In fairness to the Gov, I think they've been shocked at the speed of the BEV transition, but patience is wearing thin, and they need to do more now (yesterday).

Petriix

ontheroad1970 said:

Petriix said:

The airbnb comment was specifically relating to the holiday to the Highlands: rather than rushing to get there, you can take all the uncertainty out of the equation by planning a night halfway. We did this in our old diesel when we drove to the south of France just to take in some scenery and avoid driving for a whole day.

This is a money saving forum. The suggestion of avoiding rapid charging where possible is about make it as cheap as possible. I run my EV at 1p per mile because I'm prepared to drive efficiently and optimise my use of free and low cost charging. There are obviously reasons for doing things differently, especially if someone else is paying.

Driving slower is like turning your heating down in that you'll use less energy overall. That's because air resistance increases at the square of velocity. 50mph uses ~ 40% less energy than 70mph over the same distance.

In practice, simply sticking with the vans at 60-65mph works out way more efficient than being on the open road at 70mph because you're moving in a column of air rather than punching a hole in it yourself. Likewise, accelerating gently, planning ahead and 'coasting' so that you avoid changing speed and preserve as much momentum as possible will be more efficient.

The infrastructure is far from perfect. So it massively saves time to plan. Zap-Map tells you whether chargers are reliable because people report broken chargers. More importantly there are some motorway services (or nearby charging hubs) have 8 or more new ultra rapid chargers whereas many locations just have 1 or 2. It's pretty simple to identify which sites are better in advance of travelling, and pretty naive not to.

Just because there are benefits to being aware, doesn't make it beyond the capacity of most people. But I've observed lots of new EV drivers making some avoidable mistakes by failing to plan around the limitations of the current charging network. 

The scenario was mine.  It's a situation I can often be in.  I go to Asia quite frequently and Europe.  I have been in North West England and in the Highlands before ahead of a business trip abroad.  I can sometimes have business in the UK on my return to the UK, so Heathrow will often be the only viable route rather than say leaving my car at Edinburgh or Glasgow, or Manchester, and then having to route back to those places.  

When it is possible too rely on EV charging being available in far more parking spaces than now, then this could be done.  I don't see hiring a hybrid as being a sensible alternative.  

When you can see far more working EV chargers at service areas - say at least 30% of spaces with a charger - I don't think the perception will improve.  That perception stopped me buying electric to replace my Mazda.  EVs are suitable for some, but nowhere near everyone - the perception is that it suits hardly anyone.  I know this isn't true, but until you can take it for granted that you will find a vacant working charger, then the perception will still hang around.

Sounds like you have a particularly unusual set of requirements which would need some improvements to the infrastructure. But that shouldn't have any impact on people with more common driving patterns.

EVs are suitable for *most*, but not everyone (unless they are willing to adapt).

silverwhistle

Grumpy_chap said:

The same level of reliability and access needs to be the norm for EV charging - there are some that seem to think "not available" is a perfectly suitable outcome and I cannot understand why that would be tolerated.

I've not seen anyone say that, it strikes me as rather a strawman argument.

Obviously if you are doing lots of miles on business you will buy a suitable tool for the job, but my take on the time issue is if it is so valuable what are people doing spending hours in a car? As for spending a little longer on charging stops I find it difficult to believe anybody in business hasn't got a document to read, emails to catch up on etc. You certainly see the laptop brigade in evidence at MSAs. You should always leave enough time for any journey though judging by some behaviour I see on the roads not everybody does.

Have a look at the contribution of Stageshoot on the SpeakEV forum, not the ones with the technical issue with the particular model of car (!), regarding the practicalities of using an EV, they might be helpful to some people. What is probably worth noting is that they do a fair bit of work in London, and no tailpipe vehicles are going to be increasingly important there and elsewhere.

What is significant are the increasing numbers of multiple chargers being installed by different companies such as Osprey, MFG, Instavolt, Fastned and the like (let alone Tesla), particularly in the last 6 months. Shell and BP Pulse don't seem to be quite so motivated, and the latter in particular are avoided by many.

If I were to head north from the south coast to visit friends there are now many more options such as decent hubs on the Oxford ringroad or at Banbury. We aren't talking about major diversions off the route here, just a slip road and a roundabout or two.

So whilst EVs may not be for everybody, particularly those with spiky usage patterns or who don't wish to spend a couple of minutes planning, the vast majority of those who go EV aren't going back to fossil fuel burning.

ontheroad1970

Petriix said:

ontheroad1970 said:

Petriix said:

The airbnb comment was specifically relating to the holiday to the Highlands: rather than rushing to get there, you can take all the uncertainty out of the equation by planning a night halfway. We did this in our old diesel when we drove to the south of France just to take in some scenery and avoid driving for a whole day.

This is a money saving forum. The suggestion of avoiding rapid charging where possible is about make it as cheap as possible. I run my EV at 1p per mile because I'm prepared to drive efficiently and optimise my use of free and low cost charging. There are obviously reasons for doing things differently, especially if someone else is paying.

Driving slower is like turning your heating down in that you'll use less energy overall. That's because air resistance increases at the square of velocity. 50mph uses ~ 40% less energy than 70mph over the same distance.

In practice, simply sticking with the vans at 60-65mph works out way more efficient than being on the open road at 70mph because you're moving in a column of air rather than punching a hole in it yourself. Likewise, accelerating gently, planning ahead and 'coasting' so that you avoid changing speed and preserve as much momentum as possible will be more efficient.

The infrastructure is far from perfect. So it massively saves time to plan. Zap-Map tells you whether chargers are reliable because people report broken chargers. More importantly there are some motorway services (or nearby charging hubs) have 8 or more new ultra rapid chargers whereas many locations just have 1 or 2. It's pretty simple to identify which sites are better in advance of travelling, and pretty naive not to.

Just because there are benefits to being aware, doesn't make it beyond the capacity of most people. But I've observed lots of new EV drivers making some avoidable mistakes by failing to plan around the limitations of the current charging network. 

The scenario was mine.  It's a situation I can often be in.  I go to Asia quite frequently and Europe.  I have been in North West England and in the Highlands before ahead of a business trip abroad.  I can sometimes have business in the UK on my return to the UK, so Heathrow will often be the only viable route rather than say leaving my car at Edinburgh or Glasgow, or Manchester, and then having to route back to those places.  

When it is possible too rely on EV charging being available in far more parking spaces than now, then this could be done.  I don't see hiring a hybrid as being a sensible alternative.  

When you can see far more working EV chargers at service areas - say at least 30% of spaces with a charger - I don't think the perception will improve.  That perception stopped me buying electric to replace my Mazda.  EVs are suitable for some, but nowhere near everyone - the perception is that it suits hardly anyone.  I know this isn't true, but until you can take it for granted that you will find a vacant working charger, then the perception will still hang around.

Sounds like you have a particularly unusual set of requirements which would need some improvements to the infrastructure. But that shouldn't have any impact on people with more common driving patterns.

EVs are suitable for *most*, but not everyone (unless they are willing to adapt).

Yes, and I have made that clear several times.  EVs have a way to go until the perception of it not being a reliable form of transport changes. That means there needs to be seen to be plenty of charging points that are functioning.  AS I have said, Evs will work for most people already.  It's where there is long distance drive for leisure comes in.  People won't go to EVs en masse until they feel comfortable doing longer distances.  

Grumpy_chap

Grumpy_chap said:

The same level of reliability and access needs to be the norm for EV charging - there are some that seem to think "not available" is a perfectly suitable outcome and I cannot understand why that would be tolerated.

silverwhistle said:

I've not seen anyone say that,

It was said just here:

Petriix said:

You plan your charging stops based on the known reliable charging locations rather than simply rocking up at any services and assuming that a charger will be available. 

Why on earth would anyone accept that assuming something is working cannot be the default?
I cannot think of any other product or service where we would accept needing to make special plans to pick one of the offering that actually "works" - chiefly because those that don't work would cease trading.

grumiofoundation

Grumpy_chap said:

Grumpy_chap said:

The same level of reliability and access needs to be the norm for EV charging - there are some that seem to think "not available" is a perfectly suitable outcome and I cannot understand why that would be tolerated.

silverwhistle said:

I've not seen anyone say that,

It was said just here:

Petriix said:

You plan your charging stops based on the known reliable charging locations rather than simply rocking up at any services and assuming that a charger will be available. 

Why on earth would anyone accept that assuming something is working cannot be the default?
I cannot think of any other product or service where we would accept needing to make special plans to pick one of the offering that actually "works" - chiefly because those that don't work would cease trading.

Although I do agree regarding reliability with you how many people currently plan travel to a different petrol station because it is cheaper? 

Petriix

Grumpy_chap said:

Grumpy_chap said:

The same level of reliability and access needs to be the norm for EV charging - there are some that seem to think "not available" is a perfectly suitable outcome and I cannot understand why that would be tolerated.

silverwhistle said:

I've not seen anyone say that,

It was said just here:

Petriix said:

You plan your charging stops based on the known reliable charging locations rather than simply rocking up at any services and assuming that a charger will be available. 

Why on earth would anyone accept that assuming something is working cannot be the default?
I cannot think of any other product or service where we would accept needing to make special plans to pick one of the offering that actually "works" - chiefly because those that don't work would cease trading.

It's not so much about the reliability of the individual chargers but the number at any given location compared to the amount of traffic.

I tend to pick quieter locations off the motorway and generally prefer shorter routes on slower roads if possible. I also try to avoid travelling (or at least needing to charge in public) at peak times.

You talk about accepting the current situation as if there's much of a choice. Unfortunately we're stuck under a government who believe the market will provide... But, to reiterate for the hundredth time, the vast majority of charging takes place at home. While the poor infrastructure is far from ideal, it's not anywhere near as significant as you're making out. 

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

It's not so much about the reliability of the individual chargers but the number at any given location compared to the amount of traffic.

Quantity of installed chargers at motorway services and such like is absurdly low and defies logic.

I don't know who owns and operates on-street chargers, or why they don't have a remote alarm alert to a control centre when there is a fault, but I thought I'd go for a walk to take a picture of the nearest on-street charging to my home.  It proved as expected, no-one charging (the location is a strange choice IMO) and the farthest pod out of order which it always is.