Old electric cars?

ontheroad1970

Petriix said:

ontheroad1970 said:

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

GunJack said:

ComicGeek said:

Fortunately I haven't been desperate for a charge having a long range EV, but has meant planning other emergency stops off the motorway network 

..and I think this, for the likes of me and many many others, is part of the crux - I don't have time for such dalliences

...yet you ignore the crucial point: you only need to charge on route if you're driving beyond your total range. In most current EVs that's vanishingly rare for most driving patterns. If you genuinely need to charge then you have enormous flexibility. 

BUT, journeys on the motorway network are those where the journey is longer distance and en-route charging more likely to be needed.

It is not unusual for charging at the motorway services to be a bank of TESLA superchargers, far away from the amenity buildings plus a very small number of other EV charge points right next to the amenity buildings which is an inadequate provision and the location means that others will sometime park in those spaces even if not charging.

You're still approaching this from the point of view of an ICE driver. With an EV, it's a bit of a paradigm shift. You plan your charging stops based on the known reliable charging locations rather than simply rocking up at any services and assuming that a charger will be available. 

So on an infrequent trip that I do on average once a year.  South Wales to the Highlands.  How do you know which ones are reliable?  To woo ICE drivers, the capability of public charging needs to prove the common perception of unreliability wrong.  I don't think it's doing enough on that front.  If I have to get from say Ullapool to Heathrow do a work trip and then go back  to South Wales, then I need to have a reliable charging station.  You have to be able to drive into one and know they will be available.  No good having to try several.  

The alternative would be to have to stay in a hotel part way down to ensure that I can make my flight.  The cheap electricity isn't so cheep when you have to factor in unnecessary overnight stops. 

It does gave to 'just work' for the majority of people to make the switch.  I don't expect EV evangelists like yourself to take my word for it, and I don't believe the EV market entirely deserves the perception it has.  However, since motorway driving is generally not the best for efficiency for an EV, there does need to be more charging capacity on or near the motorway network.  It also has to be seen to be reliable.  

Quite simply: a little research before you travel. Zap-Map and Plugshare give you a decent idea. There are an increasing number of hubs with many more (new, high powered) chargers which inherently mean lower chances of long wait times.

But I do think people need to adapt rather than assume they can keep doing whatever they currently do in an ICE. Driving slower, stopping for longer, avoiding peak times etc all mitigate the main issues.

I've said it frequently. A once per year trip shouldn't be the overriding factor in your vehicle choice. You can hire a hybrid for ~ £250 for a week if you really can't break up that long journey. Otherwise consider booking a couple of nights on AirBnb and visiting some other places as part of your trip. Or divert via York as the new rapid charging hub is currently free; enjoy the town, go for lunch etc.

EVs definitely won't work for everyone at this point. If you don't have access to cheap home charging, if you regularly drive more than 300 miles in a day and have a time pressure, if you can't finance the purchase, or if you don't cover many miles in a year but semi-regularly do over 100 miles etc. then I wouldn't advise switching right now. Add in towing heavy loads and shift driving in a shared vehicle and a bunch of unusual driving patterns too.

However, for many (I've been criticised for suggesting most) and EV would save money overall. 

For the price of the hire I could fill up a Q7 twice.  You're too biased to be objective.  People aren't going to change over willingly until the perception changes.  ZapMap shows chargers not in use.  that doesn't mean they are working and genuinely available.  There needs to be far more availability for charging than at present, and soon.

ComicGeek

Petriix said:

ComicGeek said:

grumiofoundation said:

ComicGeek said:

grumiofoundation said:

ComicGeek said:

Herzlos said:

ComicGeek said:

macman said:

prowla said:

If I get into my petrol car and it says there's 20 miles left, I go straight to the petrol station to fill up.

I can't fathom anybody buying a car with up to 20 miles range.

Why? The average UK car journey is just 8.4 miles. So, as long as you can charge at home, a 20 mile range would cover most daily usage, assuming one return journey per day.

While your response is completely logically, people are not. I would never let my previous ICE get below 100miles in the tank before I filled up, range anxiety has been an issue for me long before I bought my current EV.

So with the ability to refuel at home every night, I think that paradigm changes drastically. Being able to start every morning with x range available means you only need to worry about that days usage or potentially even the first journey, since there's a good chance you'll be able to recharge somewhere near the other end.

Once you get used to low cost or zero cost charging at home, the thought of relying on a high cost charge at the other end (or having to rely on a charger actually working) is quite stressful for some people. I wouldn't want to be relying on using motorway service station charge points for journeys, very difficult to find available chargers.  

Occasionally an app update on the EV charger prevents it from charging for a night, or it needs resetting, or I forget to check range. It's much easier for me personally to have a long range EV which I know is always going to have 100+ miles range even if I forget/can't charge it one night. That also gives me flexibility on charging, so I don't have to charge every night and can wait for a sunny day to charge for free from my PV.

I would be very willing to pay a premium for a charge point if I could book a guaranteed time slot (business idea for anyone out there!), as planning our recent 700mile round trip holiday was stressful for me. In the end I didn't need to use any public charging points and used free charging at the hotel and cottage, but I still found it stressful planning emergency charge locations.

Having an electric car with a low range, and therefore on the rare occasions we go a long way we visit a LOT of service stations to charge I would say in our experience it is not very difficult to find available/working chargers. The occasions when  all chargers are in use or out of service have been a small minority.

Zap map also very good for seeing if chargers are out of service.

I do a lot of driving around M25 and M4 - in 8 months of EV ownership and dozens of service station stops in that area I've never found a free charger. There are some areas with only 2/3 chargers to start with - doesn't help that they install them right next to the shops so become prime parking spots. The best charge stations I've found are too close to home to be of any use to me. Massive variations across the country.

Fortunately I haven't been desperate for a charge having a long range EV, but has meant planning other emergency stops off the motorway network - ie small petrol station (single charger!), ikea car park, hotel car park. Just couldn't imagine trying to do this with a short range EV.

Obviously experiences will differ and we've only been on the M4/M25 a few times in the last year or two but only once or twice were they all in use and we had to actually wait. Certainly more times where none in use than when both.

So if you use them regularly I'm very surprised you have never had a situation where all the chargers were not in use at once.

Would also note we need Chademo so generally limited to 1 out of 2 chargers are many services. 

Just checked my work calendar - 29 business trips this year in that area, plus 1 holiday, so at least 50 times I've stopped near Reading. Haven't yet found an unused charge point.

As I have a long range EV I'm fortunate that I don't have to wait for one to become free, but I would have definitely used one if it was.

Even now there's no free charger at 2 services I use:

I'm genuinely baffled as to why anyone would ever voluntarily pay the extortionate price of rapid charging when not absolutely needed. If you don't need to charge to complete your journey then you don't need to charge.

Firstly it's a company car and on business travel, so the company pays directly for any rapid charging. 

Secondly, the ABRP app and the car were both saying that I definitely needed to charge on route to get to my destination so I have 4 different charge locations marked out in that area - none were available as I approached each one. As it was I was able to drive more efficiently so I didn't have to charge, but that might not always be the case if I have few extra trips to make.

Obviously there is a need for extortionate priced rapid charging at service stations as they're always in use! 48p/kWh at these isn't too bad though, but my company would much prefer to pay more to prevent me sitting around waiting.

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

You're still approaching this from the point of view of an ICE driver. With an EV, it's a bit of a paradigm shift. You plan your charging stops based on the known reliable charging locations rather than simply rocking up at any services and assuming that a charger will be available. 

Petriix said:

Quite simply: a little research before you travel. Zap-Map and Plugshare give you a decent idea. There are an increasing number of hubs with many more (new, high powered) chargers which inherently mean lower chances of long wait times.

But I do think people need to adapt rather than assume they can keep doing whatever they currently do in an ICE. Driving slower, stopping for longer, avoiding peak times etc all mitigate the main issues.

I've said it frequently. A once per year trip shouldn't be the overriding factor in your vehicle choice. You can hire a hybrid for ~ £250 for a week if you really can't break up that long journey. Otherwise consider booking a couple of nights on AirBnb and visiting some other places as part of your trip. Or divert via York as the new rapid charging hub is currently free; enjoy the town, go for lunch etc.

EVs definitely won't work for everyone at this point. If you don't have access to cheap home charging, if you regularly drive more than 300 miles in a day and have a time pressure, if you can't finance the purchase, or if you don't cover many miles in a year but semi-regularly do over 100 miles etc. then I wouldn't advise switching right now. Add in towing heavy loads and shift driving in a shared vehicle and a bunch of unusual driving patterns too.

However, for many (I've been criticised for suggesting most) and EV would save money overall. 

This is really not promoting EV as a viable alternative for anyone and EV really is a viable alternative for the bulk of people at the time they are changing vehicle in any case.  For many it will be sensible from both a money and practical point of view.

They suggestion that it is acceptable to have an infrastructure that is too unreliable or otherwise insufficient to "just work" seems absurd.

All this pre-planning, adapting, drive slower, stay a couple of nights each way to allow for charging etc. is quite absurd.

For an EV-evangelist, which I know you are, those two posts are the strongest evidence for anyone to reject EV.
Are you implying that I need to avoid any return journey that exceeds the range of the EV?  That is the logic as any journey further, you are suggesting I need to drive slowly (what does that mean?  50 mph?), have long stops, maybe an overnight stay?
Say a typical EV has real world range 150 miles.
I want to go London to Manchester and back in a day.
In an ICE, the trip is 4 - 4.5 hours each way.  I probably stop on the way each way for food and toilet break.  If that stop is mid-way, then charging the EV at the same time should not add an extortionate amount of time or inconvenience (assuming there is destination charging as well).
If I add in planning the night before to investigate reliable charge locations, then the charge is not where I'd want to be stopping, then I drive at 50 rather than 70, then the journey has dragged out so I need an overnight stop as well, the whole thing becomes a nonsense financially and a nonsense for time.  Absolutely not good whatsoever for the business user.

Martyn1981

Lots of EV's have a real world range greater than 150 miles, so let's not set up a scenario just for the purposes of failing.

Our 28kWh IONIQ will do 130 miles, or 150 miles if driven gently in ECO mode (let's say upto 60mph).

You suggest having to drive at 50 not 70mph, but suggest an average speed for an ICEV of 47-53mph (210 miles over 4 to 4.5hrs?). I've just Googled it, and got ~4hrs, so 53mph, so a lot of the driving, assuming a max of 70mph when possible, won't be too hard on the BEV.

Then suggesting you need to stay overnight ..... why, just because you might have to make 3 stops (not 2) in a shorter range BEV, I don't understand that comment/suggestion.

I think a range of 200 miles is fairer for this scenario, as you are presenting a business trip, with same day return, so it would be silly to base it on a shorter range BEV, as the purchase choice would be at fault, not the BEV. That then means choosing a stop somewhere in the 110-200 mile region, to allow enough range for the return journey to only require one stop. That gives you some choice of chargers.

Clearly the issue here is the availability of working chargers, I don't think Petrix has at any point challenged that. But if you are willing to put in a bit of effort, then the problem really isn't that bad. If you aren't ready to put in the effort, which is 100% acceptable, I'm not knocking that at all, then it may still be too soon to take the leap, but that doesn't mean BEV's aren't viable, just that they aren't guaranteed to be easy ... yet.

Sorry to mention Tesla, but their range, and the supercharger network, mean they are viable today, but of course you pay a lot for that. However, Tesla is slowly opening up the supercharger network, a network that they are expanding by about 33% (physically*) each year. Not the greatest choice of open chargers for your chosen route, but you can use the Banbury chargers (12x 250kW), or a bit off the route, the Birmingham St Andrews chargers (16x 250kW). Also, if enough range to make a whole leg, then there's the Manchester Trafford chargers (18x 250kW).

*They also upgrade the chargers, with V.4's (~350kW) to come out soon, and faster chargers, with BEV's capable of absorbing the higher power levels, actually means a higher throughput for the same number of spaces/chargers.

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

You suggest having to drive at 50 not 70mph, but suggest an average speed for an ICEV of 47-53mph (210 miles over 4 to 4.5hrs?). I've just Googled it, and got ~4hrs, so 53mph, so a lot of the driving, assuming a max of 70mph when possible, won't be too hard on the BEV.

Then suggesting you need to stay overnight ..... why, just because you might have to make 3 stops (not 2) in a shorter range BEV, I don't understand that comment/suggestion.

This journey in an ICE would be 4 - 4.5 hours in total, so 70 mph when possible and that total time includes the necessary stop (required for refuelling and refreshing the driver). 
The suggestion seems to be that with an EV, the actual driving would be at 50 mph, so that must increase journey time.

The stay overnight was not my suggestion, but I was commenting against the suggestion by another poster that a long journey should be managed by booking an Air BnB and stopping for a couple of nights to enjoy somewhere else as well.
Whether a business journey or not, I'd suggest that having to fit in another couple of nights somewhere en-route would be an inconvenience.

TESLA probably is the only brand that would support this type of use, with the combination of model range plus charging provision.  Even ignoring the current price movements, that "one brand" solution is not sustainable.  I realise that alternative brands of EV are now available with longer ranges, but they are still let down by the charging network.

I was amazed that the other poster, who is usually unrealistically pro-EV suddenly painted such a harsh depiction of live with an EV.

The idea that we should not just expect to turn up to a charger and expect to be able to use it is ludicrous.
The whole context of all this pre-trip planning and such like is really harking back to the 1970's when a long journey meant sending off in advance for an AA route planner guide...

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

You suggest having to drive at 50 not 70mph, but suggest an average speed for an ICEV of 47-53mph (210 miles over 4 to 4.5hrs?). I've just Googled it, and got ~4hrs, so 53mph, so a lot of the driving, assuming a max of 70mph when possible, won't be too hard on the BEV.

Then suggesting you need to stay overnight ..... why, just because you might have to make 3 stops (not 2) in a shorter range BEV, I don't understand that comment/suggestion.

This journey in an ICE would be 4 - 4.5 hours in total, so 70 mph when possible and that total time includes the necessary stop (required for refuelling and refreshing the driver). 
The suggestion seems to be that with an EV, the actual driving would be at 50 mph, so that must increase journey time.

The stay overnight was not my suggestion, but I was commenting against the suggestion by another poster that a long journey should be managed by booking an Air BnB and stopping for a couple of nights to enjoy somewhere else as well.
Whether a business journey or not, I'd suggest that having to fit in another couple of nights somewhere en-route would be an inconvenience.

TESLA probably is the only brand that would support this type of use, with the combination of model range plus charging provision.  Even ignoring the current price movements, that "one brand" solution is not sustainable.  I realise that alternative brands of EV are now available with longer ranges, but they are still let down by the charging network.

I was amazed that the other poster, who is usually unrealistically pro-EV suddenly painted such a harsh depiction of live with an EV.

The idea that we should not just expect to turn up to a charger and expect to be able to use it is ludicrous.
The whole context of all this pre-trip planning and such like is really harking back to the 1970's when a long journey meant sending off in advance for an AA route planner guide...

Hiya. The journey time appears to be ~4hrs, so that's roughly 50mph average. Any stops are additional. So, as I said, assuming 70mph max when possible, that trip won't be particularly hard on a BEV's range, since it's a slow route regardless of vehicle choice.

Yes I appreciate that Petrix mentioned a B&B, and visiting other sites, but I don't recall him suggesting it for a business return trip, unless you can point me to such a comment.

Again, not just Tesla's, as they are opening up the supercharger network, as I took pain to explain. It's important to revise your comments and position as things change, since we are still in the infancy of BEV's.

I totally understand that you feel it's ludicrous not to expect a charger to be useable, however, you have to appreciate that not everyone is the same. Many will feel like you, nothing wrong with that, many will be willing to be more flexible in these early days, nothing wrong with that either. You seem to have a strong personal opinion, but then denigrate Petrix for having a different one.

Shirley, it's important to have BEV'ers share information and experience, and also solutions, for those interested in moving to a BEV. Labelling anyone who is trying to help as an 'evangelist' seems unnecessarily harsh. My experience of threads like this going back 5yrs or more, is that trying to explain what is possible, just gets you falsely labelled as an 'evangelist' or statements that 'you think it's all perfect'.

Owning an using a BEV is getting easier, but for many, the current state of the UK's ultra-fast charging network, is not good enough. And we can all create a scenario where a BEV will fail, but why would anyone choose to do that, just don't get a BEV yet if your actual usage won't work well, and if you aren't willing to make a compromise occasionally. [And again, I'm not knocking that, that's a personal choice, and things will continue to improve.]

BTW, on another forum (specialising in sustainability), a friend has just got back from a week in SW France. 1,100 miles, in a Tesla 3 long range. No probs, no planning. Hopefully, this will become the case for all BEV's, as the % of sales increase, and then the % of the fleet.

Petriix

The airbnb comment was specifically relating to the holiday to the Highlands: rather than rushing to get there, you can take all the uncertainty out of the equation by planning a night halfway. We did this in our old diesel when we drove to the south of France just to take in some scenery and avoid driving for a whole day.

This is a money saving forum. The suggestion of avoiding rapid charging where possible is about make it as cheap as possible. I run my EV at 1p per mile because I'm prepared to drive efficiently and optimise my use of free and low cost charging. There are obviously reasons for doing things differently, especially if someone else is paying.

Driving slower is like turning your heating down in that you'll use less energy overall. That's because air resistance increases at the square of velocity. 50mph uses ~ 40% less energy than 70mph over the same distance.

In practice, simply sticking with the vans at 60-65mph works out way more efficient than being on the open road at 70mph because you're moving in a column of air rather than punching a hole in it yourself. Likewise, accelerating gently, planning ahead and 'coasting' so that you avoid changing speed and preserve as much momentum as possible will be more efficient.

The infrastructure is far from perfect. So it massively saves time to plan. Zap-Map tells you whether chargers are reliable because people report broken chargers. More importantly there are some motorway services (or nearby charging hubs) have 8 or more new ultra rapid chargers whereas many locations just have 1 or 2. It's pretty simple to identify which sites are better in advance of travelling, and pretty naive not to.

Just because there are benefits to being aware, doesn't make it beyond the capacity of most people. But I've observed lots of new EV drivers making some avoidable mistakes by failing to plan around the limitations of the current charging network. 

ComicGeek

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

You suggest having to drive at 50 not 70mph, but suggest an average speed for an ICEV of 47-53mph (210 miles over 4 to 4.5hrs?). I've just Googled it, and got ~4hrs, so 53mph, so a lot of the driving, assuming a max of 70mph when possible, won't be too hard on the BEV.

Then suggesting you need to stay overnight ..... why, just because you might have to make 3 stops (not 2) in a shorter range BEV, I don't understand that comment/suggestion.

I was amazed that the other poster, who is usually unrealistically pro-EV suddenly painted such a harsh depiction of live with an EV.

The idea that we should not just expect to turn up to a charger and expect to be able to use it is ludicrous.
The whole context of all this pre-trip planning and such like is really harking back to the 1970's when a long journey meant sending off in advance for an AA route planner guide...

If the 'other poster' is me, I would say that my comments should be read as identifying issues with inadequate motorway charging infrastructure. 99% of my journeys are great as I don't need to charge. Lots of businesses that I visit have chargers, most car parks have chargers, easy to find chargers at supermarkets, hotels etc - but this is all generally off the main motorway network, and not many people have the time to spare to detour. It's different if you're on holiday and can build in nice stops, but most people want to stop briefly and then keep going.

3 sub 50kW charge points at a major motorway service station just isn't enough.

I wouldn't want to put anyone off getting an EV, but I would seriously think carefully about the range needed. I waited until I could get over 300 miles on a single charge, and also with a heat pump to maximise winter range. I just wouldn't consider anything less, unless it was a 2nd car.

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

The airbnb comment was specifically relating to the holiday to the Highlands: rather than rushing to get there, you can take all the uncertainty out of the equation by planning a night halfway. We did this in our old diesel when we drove to the south of France just to take in some scenery and avoid driving for a whole day.

This is a money saving forum. The suggestion of avoiding rapid charging where possible is about make it as cheap as possible. I run my EV at 1p per mile because I'm prepared to drive efficiently and optimise my use of free and low cost charging. There are obviously reasons for doing things differently, especially if someone else is paying.

Driving slower is like turning your heating down in that you'll use less energy overall. That's because air resistance increases at the square of velocity. 50mph uses ~ 40% less energy than 70mph over the same distance.

So, you would need to set the cost of the Air BnB extra night versus the cost of completing the journey.

Driving slower uses less energy.  It also increases the journey time.  Do you not value your time?

ComicGeek said:

If the 'other poster' is me, 

It was not.

ComicGeek said:

 not many people have the time to spare to detour. 

I agree
The infrastructure needs to be sufficiently adequate that it can be relied upon without demanding excessive planning, or detours, or not being able to rely that we can just turn up and it will work.
In the main, the journey is a means to an end and there is value in that being without unnecessary delay or prolongation.
The concept that main route services charging cannot be relied upon is like saying that main route toilets cannot be expected to be open / operational.  They are an essential part of being able to sensibly complete the journey and, therefore, a very rare exceptional event if the toilets are not working or otherwise inaccessible.
The same level of reliability and access needs to be the norm for EV charging - there are some that seem to think "not available" is a perfectly suitable outcome and I cannot understand why that would be tolerated.

Petriix

Yes, the infrastructure needs to be improved (that is already happening by the way). No, it's not difficult to figure out which services offer reliable charging and which don't. No, it shouldn't put you off getting an EV - most driving patterns would only require very occasional use of public charging. 

It isn't binary. There are plenty of reliable charging options out there, but there are some which should be treated as a bonus rather than an expectation. Thankfully there's plenty of information available for anyone who can be bothered to look.