Old electric cars?

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

GunJack said:

ComicGeek said:

Fortunately I haven't been desperate for a charge having a long range EV, but has meant planning other emergency stops off the motorway network 

..and I think this, for the likes of me and many many others, is part of the crux - I don't have time for such dalliences

...yet you ignore the crucial point: you only need to charge on route if you're driving beyond your total range. In most current EVs that's vanishingly rare for most driving patterns. If you genuinely need to charge then you have enormous flexibility. 

BUT, journeys on the motorway network are those where the journey is longer distance and en-route charging more likely to be needed.

It is not unusual for charging at the motorway services to be a bank of TESLA superchargers, far away from the amenity buildings plus a very small number of other EV charge points right next to the amenity buildings which is an inadequate provision and the location means that others will sometime park in those spaces even if not charging.

Herzlos

Part of the benefit of the EV chargers being away from the front of service station car parks is to avoid ICing - when the space is taken by an ICE car.

ComicGeek

Herzlos said:

Part of the benefit of the EV chargers being away from the front of service station car parks is to avoid ICing - when the space is taken by an ICE car.

Agreed - it will also stop some EVs who don't really need to charge using them to get the close parking spaces.

The problem I've found with Zap-Map, WattsUp etc is that they will only tell you what chargers aren't being used, not if someone just parking there, if the EV next door has blocked the space, if it's not working properly etc.

Not so bad waiting briefly at 150kW chargers, but most of the ones I've seen at motorway services are 50kW max and then also shared across multiple charge points.

grumiofoundation

ComicGeek said:

grumiofoundation said:

ComicGeek said:

Herzlos said:

ComicGeek said:

macman said:

prowla said:

If I get into my petrol car and it says there's 20 miles left, I go straight to the petrol station to fill up.

I can't fathom anybody buying a car with up to 20 miles range.

Why? The average UK car journey is just 8.4 miles. So, as long as you can charge at home, a 20 mile range would cover most daily usage, assuming one return journey per day.

While your response is completely logically, people are not. I would never let my previous ICE get below 100miles in the tank before I filled up, range anxiety has been an issue for me long before I bought my current EV.

So with the ability to refuel at home every night, I think that paradigm changes drastically. Being able to start every morning with x range available means you only need to worry about that days usage or potentially even the first journey, since there's a good chance you'll be able to recharge somewhere near the other end.

Once you get used to low cost or zero cost charging at home, the thought of relying on a high cost charge at the other end (or having to rely on a charger actually working) is quite stressful for some people. I wouldn't want to be relying on using motorway service station charge points for journeys, very difficult to find available chargers.  

Occasionally an app update on the EV charger prevents it from charging for a night, or it needs resetting, or I forget to check range. It's much easier for me personally to have a long range EV which I know is always going to have 100+ miles range even if I forget/can't charge it one night. That also gives me flexibility on charging, so I don't have to charge every night and can wait for a sunny day to charge for free from my PV.

I would be very willing to pay a premium for a charge point if I could book a guaranteed time slot (business idea for anyone out there!), as planning our recent 700mile round trip holiday was stressful for me. In the end I didn't need to use any public charging points and used free charging at the hotel and cottage, but I still found it stressful planning emergency charge locations.

Having an electric car with a low range, and therefore on the rare occasions we go a long way we visit a LOT of service stations to charge I would say in our experience it is not very difficult to find available/working chargers. The occasions when  all chargers are in use or out of service have been a small minority.

Zap map also very good for seeing if chargers are out of service.

I do a lot of driving around M25 and M4 - in 8 months of EV ownership and dozens of service station stops in that area I've never found a free charger. There are some areas with only 2/3 chargers to start with - doesn't help that they install them right next to the shops so become prime parking spots. The best charge stations I've found are too close to home to be of any use to me. Massive variations across the country.

Fortunately I haven't been desperate for a charge having a long range EV, but has meant planning other emergency stops off the motorway network - ie small petrol station (single charger!), ikea car park, hotel car park. Just couldn't imagine trying to do this with a short range EV.

Obviously experiences will differ and we've only been on the M4/M25 a few times in the last year or two but only once or twice were they all in use and we had to actually wait. Certainly more times where none in use than when both.

So if you use them regularly I'm very surprised you have never had a situation where all the chargers were not in use at once.

Would also note we need Chademo so generally limited to 1 out of 2 chargers are many services. 

grumiofoundation

Herzlos said:

Part of the benefit of the EV chargers being away from the front of service station car parks is to avoid ICing - when the space is taken by an ICE car.

to add to the post above we've had to wait for chargers due to ICing nearly as many times as charging!!!

ComicGeek

grumiofoundation said:

ComicGeek said:

grumiofoundation said:

ComicGeek said:

Herzlos said:

ComicGeek said:

macman said:

prowla said:

If I get into my petrol car and it says there's 20 miles left, I go straight to the petrol station to fill up.

I can't fathom anybody buying a car with up to 20 miles range.

Why? The average UK car journey is just 8.4 miles. So, as long as you can charge at home, a 20 mile range would cover most daily usage, assuming one return journey per day.

While your response is completely logically, people are not. I would never let my previous ICE get below 100miles in the tank before I filled up, range anxiety has been an issue for me long before I bought my current EV.

So with the ability to refuel at home every night, I think that paradigm changes drastically. Being able to start every morning with x range available means you only need to worry about that days usage or potentially even the first journey, since there's a good chance you'll be able to recharge somewhere near the other end.

Once you get used to low cost or zero cost charging at home, the thought of relying on a high cost charge at the other end (or having to rely on a charger actually working) is quite stressful for some people. I wouldn't want to be relying on using motorway service station charge points for journeys, very difficult to find available chargers.  

Occasionally an app update on the EV charger prevents it from charging for a night, or it needs resetting, or I forget to check range. It's much easier for me personally to have a long range EV which I know is always going to have 100+ miles range even if I forget/can't charge it one night. That also gives me flexibility on charging, so I don't have to charge every night and can wait for a sunny day to charge for free from my PV.

I would be very willing to pay a premium for a charge point if I could book a guaranteed time slot (business idea for anyone out there!), as planning our recent 700mile round trip holiday was stressful for me. In the end I didn't need to use any public charging points and used free charging at the hotel and cottage, but I still found it stressful planning emergency charge locations.

Having an electric car with a low range, and therefore on the rare occasions we go a long way we visit a LOT of service stations to charge I would say in our experience it is not very difficult to find available/working chargers. The occasions when  all chargers are in use or out of service have been a small minority.

Zap map also very good for seeing if chargers are out of service.

I do a lot of driving around M25 and M4 - in 8 months of EV ownership and dozens of service station stops in that area I've never found a free charger. There are some areas with only 2/3 chargers to start with - doesn't help that they install them right next to the shops so become prime parking spots. The best charge stations I've found are too close to home to be of any use to me. Massive variations across the country.

Fortunately I haven't been desperate for a charge having a long range EV, but has meant planning other emergency stops off the motorway network - ie small petrol station (single charger!), ikea car park, hotel car park. Just couldn't imagine trying to do this with a short range EV.

Obviously experiences will differ and we've only been on the M4/M25 a few times in the last year or two but only once or twice were they all in use and we had to actually wait. Certainly more times where none in use than when both.

So if you use them regularly I'm very surprised you have never had a situation where all the chargers were not in use at once.

Would also note we need Chademo so generally limited to 1 out of 2 chargers are many services. 

Just checked my work calendar - 29 business trips this year in that area, plus 1 holiday, so at least 50 times I've stopped near Reading. Haven't yet found an unused charge point.

As I have a long range EV I'm fortunate that I don't have to wait for one to become free, but I would have definitely used one if it was.

Even now there's no free charger at 2 services I use:

Petriix

ComicGeek said:

grumiofoundation said:

ComicGeek said:

grumiofoundation said:

ComicGeek said:

Herzlos said:

ComicGeek said:

macman said:

prowla said:

If I get into my petrol car and it says there's 20 miles left, I go straight to the petrol station to fill up.

I can't fathom anybody buying a car with up to 20 miles range.

Why? The average UK car journey is just 8.4 miles. So, as long as you can charge at home, a 20 mile range would cover most daily usage, assuming one return journey per day.

While your response is completely logically, people are not. I would never let my previous ICE get below 100miles in the tank before I filled up, range anxiety has been an issue for me long before I bought my current EV.

So with the ability to refuel at home every night, I think that paradigm changes drastically. Being able to start every morning with x range available means you only need to worry about that days usage or potentially even the first journey, since there's a good chance you'll be able to recharge somewhere near the other end.

Once you get used to low cost or zero cost charging at home, the thought of relying on a high cost charge at the other end (or having to rely on a charger actually working) is quite stressful for some people. I wouldn't want to be relying on using motorway service station charge points for journeys, very difficult to find available chargers.  

Occasionally an app update on the EV charger prevents it from charging for a night, or it needs resetting, or I forget to check range. It's much easier for me personally to have a long range EV which I know is always going to have 100+ miles range even if I forget/can't charge it one night. That also gives me flexibility on charging, so I don't have to charge every night and can wait for a sunny day to charge for free from my PV.

I would be very willing to pay a premium for a charge point if I could book a guaranteed time slot (business idea for anyone out there!), as planning our recent 700mile round trip holiday was stressful for me. In the end I didn't need to use any public charging points and used free charging at the hotel and cottage, but I still found it stressful planning emergency charge locations.

Having an electric car with a low range, and therefore on the rare occasions we go a long way we visit a LOT of service stations to charge I would say in our experience it is not very difficult to find available/working chargers. The occasions when  all chargers are in use or out of service have been a small minority.

Zap map also very good for seeing if chargers are out of service.

I do a lot of driving around M25 and M4 - in 8 months of EV ownership and dozens of service station stops in that area I've never found a free charger. There are some areas with only 2/3 chargers to start with - doesn't help that they install them right next to the shops so become prime parking spots. The best charge stations I've found are too close to home to be of any use to me. Massive variations across the country.

Fortunately I haven't been desperate for a charge having a long range EV, but has meant planning other emergency stops off the motorway network - ie small petrol station (single charger!), ikea car park, hotel car park. Just couldn't imagine trying to do this with a short range EV.

Obviously experiences will differ and we've only been on the M4/M25 a few times in the last year or two but only once or twice were they all in use and we had to actually wait. Certainly more times where none in use than when both.

So if you use them regularly I'm very surprised you have never had a situation where all the chargers were not in use at once.

Would also note we need Chademo so generally limited to 1 out of 2 chargers are many services. 

Just checked my work calendar - 29 business trips this year in that area, plus 1 holiday, so at least 50 times I've stopped near Reading. Haven't yet found an unused charge point.

As I have a long range EV I'm fortunate that I don't have to wait for one to become free, but I would have definitely used one if it was.

Even now there's no free charger at 2 services I use:

I'm genuinely baffled as to why anyone would ever voluntarily pay the extortionate price of rapid charging when not absolutely needed. If you don't need to charge to complete your journey then you don't need to charge.

Petriix

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

GunJack said:

ComicGeek said:

Fortunately I haven't been desperate for a charge having a long range EV, but has meant planning other emergency stops off the motorway network 

..and I think this, for the likes of me and many many others, is part of the crux - I don't have time for such dalliences

...yet you ignore the crucial point: you only need to charge on route if you're driving beyond your total range. In most current EVs that's vanishingly rare for most driving patterns. If you genuinely need to charge then you have enormous flexibility. 

BUT, journeys on the motorway network are those where the journey is longer distance and en-route charging more likely to be needed.

It is not unusual for charging at the motorway services to be a bank of TESLA superchargers, far away from the amenity buildings plus a very small number of other EV charge points right next to the amenity buildings which is an inadequate provision and the location means that others will sometime park in those spaces even if not charging.

You're still approaching this from the point of view of an ICE driver. With an EV, it's a bit of a paradigm shift. You plan your charging stops based on the known reliable charging locations rather than simply rocking up at any services and assuming that a charger will be available. 

ontheroad1970

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

GunJack said:

ComicGeek said:

Fortunately I haven't been desperate for a charge having a long range EV, but has meant planning other emergency stops off the motorway network 

..and I think this, for the likes of me and many many others, is part of the crux - I don't have time for such dalliences

...yet you ignore the crucial point: you only need to charge on route if you're driving beyond your total range. In most current EVs that's vanishingly rare for most driving patterns. If you genuinely need to charge then you have enormous flexibility. 

BUT, journeys on the motorway network are those where the journey is longer distance and en-route charging more likely to be needed.

It is not unusual for charging at the motorway services to be a bank of TESLA superchargers, far away from the amenity buildings plus a very small number of other EV charge points right next to the amenity buildings which is an inadequate provision and the location means that others will sometime park in those spaces even if not charging.

You're still approaching this from the point of view of an ICE driver. With an EV, it's a bit of a paradigm shift. You plan your charging stops based on the known reliable charging locations rather than simply rocking up at any services and assuming that a charger will be available. 

So on an infrequent trip that I do on average once a year.  South Wales to the Highlands.  How do you know which ones are reliable?  To woo ICE drivers, the capability of public charging needs to prove the common perception of unreliability wrong.  I don't think it's doing enough on that front.  If I have to get from say Ullapool to Heathrow do a work trip and then go back  to South Wales, then I need to have a reliable charging station.  You have to be able to drive into one and know they will be available.  No good having to try several.  

The alternative would be to have to stay in a hotel part way down to ensure that I can make my flight.  The cheap electricity isn't so cheep when you have to factor in unnecessary overnight stops. 

It does gave to 'just work' for the majority of people to make the switch.  I don't expect EV evangelists like yourself to take my word for it, and I don't believe the EV market entirely deserves the perception it has.  However, since motorway driving is generally not the best for efficiency for an EV, there does need to be more charging capacity on or near the motorway network.  It also has to be seen to be reliable.  

Petriix

ontheroad1970 said:

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

GunJack said:

ComicGeek said:

Fortunately I haven't been desperate for a charge having a long range EV, but has meant planning other emergency stops off the motorway network 

..and I think this, for the likes of me and many many others, is part of the crux - I don't have time for such dalliences

...yet you ignore the crucial point: you only need to charge on route if you're driving beyond your total range. In most current EVs that's vanishingly rare for most driving patterns. If you genuinely need to charge then you have enormous flexibility. 

BUT, journeys on the motorway network are those where the journey is longer distance and en-route charging more likely to be needed.

It is not unusual for charging at the motorway services to be a bank of TESLA superchargers, far away from the amenity buildings plus a very small number of other EV charge points right next to the amenity buildings which is an inadequate provision and the location means that others will sometime park in those spaces even if not charging.

You're still approaching this from the point of view of an ICE driver. With an EV, it's a bit of a paradigm shift. You plan your charging stops based on the known reliable charging locations rather than simply rocking up at any services and assuming that a charger will be available. 

So on an infrequent trip that I do on average once a year.  South Wales to the Highlands.  How do you know which ones are reliable?  To woo ICE drivers, the capability of public charging needs to prove the common perception of unreliability wrong.  I don't think it's doing enough on that front.  If I have to get from say Ullapool to Heathrow do a work trip and then go back  to South Wales, then I need to have a reliable charging station.  You have to be able to drive into one and know they will be available.  No good having to try several.  

The alternative would be to have to stay in a hotel part way down to ensure that I can make my flight.  The cheap electricity isn't so cheep when you have to factor in unnecessary overnight stops. 

It does gave to 'just work' for the majority of people to make the switch.  I don't expect EV evangelists like yourself to take my word for it, and I don't believe the EV market entirely deserves the perception it has.  However, since motorway driving is generally not the best for efficiency for an EV, there does need to be more charging capacity on or near the motorway network.  It also has to be seen to be reliable.  

Quite simply: a little research before you travel. Zap-Map and Plugshare give you a decent idea. There are an increasing number of hubs with many more (new, high powered) chargers which inherently mean lower chances of long wait times.

But I do think people need to adapt rather than assume they can keep doing whatever they currently do in an ICE. Driving slower, stopping for longer, avoiding peak times etc all mitigate the main issues.

I've said it frequently. A once per year trip shouldn't be the overriding factor in your vehicle choice. You can hire a hybrid for ~ £250 for a week if you really can't break up that long journey. Otherwise consider booking a couple of nights on AirBnb and visiting some other places as part of your trip. Or divert via York as the new rapid charging hub is currently free; enjoy the town, go for lunch etc.

EVs definitely won't work for everyone at this point. If you don't have access to cheap home charging, if you regularly drive more than 300 miles in a day and have a time pressure, if you can't finance the purchase, or if you don't cover many miles in a year but semi-regularly do over 100 miles etc. then I wouldn't advise switching right now. Add in towing heavy loads and shift driving in a shared vehicle and a bunch of unusual driving patterns too.

However, for many (I've been criticised for suggesting most) and EV would save money overall.