EV Discussion thread

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

Tesla cuts prices of its entire China line-up

https://www.electrive.com/2023/01/06/tesla-cuts-prices-of-its-entire-china-line-up/

The Tesla Model 3 is now available in China for the equivalent of around £28000. List price in the UK is £48,490 but on the Tesla website it seems that it will actually cost £51,090. I know it is not unusual for there to be regional variations (Apple traditionally used to charge the same price in £ as in $) and there are shipping costs and of course local taxes but this difference is huge. Is Tesla actually making any money in China? Presumably the marginal cost of producing each extra car is less than £28k but it will erode Tesla’s market leading margins. 

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design

Edit: For comparison this thread suggests the MG4 retails for £23,460 in China compared to £25,995 in the UK.

https://www.mgevs.com/threads/mg4s-prices-in-china.7324/

You've got metallic & 19" wheels selected. The base price is £48490. Excluding vat & destination fee the price is £39473. I don't think China taxes BEVs so the difference is about £11.5K.

The TM3 is probably cheaper to manufacture than the MG4 due to the giga presses used for the front & rear structures. The structural battery pack has also reduced cost significantly according to Musk. 

Thanks Nick,I missed that. I didn’t actually select them, at least not knowingly. I’m not a big wheel man, myself. So yes it is £48,490 list of which £8k is VAT. 

Edit: while the structural battery pack and Giga press manufacture may reduce production cost, I have my doubts as to the long term benefit as the cars become less reparable. I had seen a few horror stories of recent insurance premiums on the TOCUK Facebook site. Tesla must be very confident of their battery packs as with the structural packs you can’t just swap a new pack in under warranty or replace a few rogue cells. 7 or 8 years down the line that might come back and bite them.

Edit 2: I’ve lost track of which models/factories are using structural packs, 4680 cells or even which battery chemistry. Tesla make changes so often that I suspect a lot of buyers don’t know exactly what spec their car is (witness the confusion about whether a car you order will have parking sensors). Most auto manufacturers make an annual revision of their major technology in each car (often accompanied by minor cosmetic changes) and henceforth it becomes known as the 2022 model etc. I suspect if buying some TM3s secondhand one would be hard pushed to know just what battery chemistry and how many kWh one is getting. 

Martyn1981

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

Tesla cuts prices of its entire China line-up

https://www.electrive.com/2023/01/06/tesla-cuts-prices-of-its-entire-china-line-up/

The Tesla Model 3 is now available in China for the equivalent of around £28000. List price in the UK is £48,490 but on the Tesla website it seems that it will actually cost £51,090. I know it is not unusual for there to be regional variations (Apple traditionally used to charge the same price in £ as in $) and there are shipping costs and of course local taxes but this difference is huge. Is Tesla actually making any money in China? Presumably the marginal cost of producing each extra car is less than £28k but it will erode Tesla’s market leading margins. 

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design

Edit: For comparison this thread suggests the MG4 retails for £23,460 in China compared to £25,995 in the UK.

https://www.mgevs.com/threads/mg4s-prices-in-china.7324/

You've got metallic & 19" wheels selected. The base price is £48490. Excluding vat & destination fee the price is £39473. I don't think China taxes BEVs so the difference is about £11.5K.

The TM3 is probably cheaper to manufacture than the MG4 due to the giga presses used for the front & rear structures. The structural battery pack has also reduced cost significantly according to Musk. 

This is looking like really good news for BEV's in China (Asia/Pacific). Could be totally wrong, but I suspect the price war has now started. Tesla's are now close to the BYD prices. Only Tesla and BYD were profitable after deducting the EV subsidies in China (which have now ended), with BYD marginal Tesla have probably halved their margin (10%-15%?) but it may mean they can maximise production? SAIC (MG is one of their brands) is sizeable, but smaller than BYD/Tesla, so now there's 2 (or 3) EV monsters, with very high production, and low prices (margins wise), so this will shake up the Chinese market.

Obviously 'stuff' was going to happen in China this year, given the incoming recession/slowdown, more Covid issues, and that EV credit ending, with car sales slowing, but they will remain the largest EV market in the World, so one to watch (Canary in the coalmine perhaps!)

Probably sounds like a negative, but I think the hundreds of Chinese EV startups will now start to be bought up, consolidate etc (just like GM a 100yrs ago). We may be at the very beginning of the mature EV market in China, and I think that should cause a lot of fear in Europe.

The Giga presses and structural packs do benefit those with larger production numbers, and it was interesting to see Munro and his team unbolt and remove one of the structural packs. To see it lowered out, with seats attached, is something new to me.

Hoping now that the UK TM3 prices will fall back down (well, the SR and LR, as the P didn't go up much). I was chatting with a friend recently about the LR v's P, and suggested that with the acceleration boost (~100bhp), the LR is better value. But then suggested for the current price difference of about £4k (rather than £8-£10k), might as well get the performance. Strange times we are in. Maybe prices (in the UK) will be revised when the TM3 Highland model launches.

1961Nick

The price cut isn't great news for Tesla but they have the capacity to replace lost margin/unit with additional production. For many other EV manufacturers a reduction in unit price could be ruinous.

JKenH

Energy crisis sees electric vehicle charge points raise prices during peak times

High wholesale electricity costs have seen three charge point operators (CPOs) in the UK raise the cost of charging electric vehicles (EVs) at peak times. GeniePoint, Ubitricity and Char.gy have all joined Tesla in deploying dynamic pricing across their public networks, offering drivers lower rates for charging at off-peak hours, and higher prices during times of peak demand.

Against the backdrop of rising commodity costs, charge point operators are trying to price in a way that supports the best use of their network, while still reflecting high input costs. Dynamic pricing may be a useful tool in this task, if done well. In many cases it will clearly be preferable to pushing up costs across the whole day.

https://www.cornwall-insight.com/press/energy-crisis-sees-electric-vehicle-charge-points-raise-prices-during-peak-times/

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Energy crisis sees electric vehicle charge points raise prices during peak times

High wholesale electricity costs have seen three charge point operators (CPOs) in the UK raise the cost of charging electric vehicles (EVs) at peak times. GeniePoint, Ubitricity and Char.gy have all joined Tesla in deploying dynamic pricing across their public networks, offering drivers lower rates for charging at off-peak hours, and higher prices during times of peak demand.

Against the backdrop of rising commodity costs, charge point operators are trying to price in a way that supports the best use of their network, while still reflecting high input costs. Dynamic pricing may be a useful tool in this task, if done well. In many cases it will clearly be preferable to pushing up costs across the whole day.

https://www.cornwall-insight.com/press/energy-crisis-sees-electric-vehicle-charge-points-raise-prices-during-peak-times/

It makes sense & could lead to dynamic pricing across the whole day. 

JKenH

Tesla customers in China storm showrooms protesting missed discount

What should Tesla do in this situation? Will the same situation arise in the UK/Europe? How would you feel if you had just taken delivery of a new car and Tesla made a similar price cut (up to 25% according to the report)? Is it any different to finding the price of the new TV you bought before Christmas slashed in the Boxing Day sale?

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-storm-showrooms-protest/

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Tesla customers in China storm showrooms protesting missed discount

What should Tesla do in this situation? Will the same situation arise in the UK/Europe? How would you feel if you had just taken delivery of a new car and Tesla made a similar price cut (up to 25% according to the report)? Is it any different to finding the price of the new TV you bought before Christmas slashed in the Boxing Day sale?

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-storm-showrooms-protest/

Some of the price difference is compensated for by the ending of Government incentives on 31st Dec. 

JKenH

Tesla prices are in free fall as latest used car data shows huge drops in value

‘We also hear some private and business buyers are put off by Tesla’s high insurance rates, with groupings comparable to supercars.’

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/tesla-prices-are-in-free-fall-as-latest-used-car-data-shows-huge-drops-in-value/277342

Used Tesla values come down with a crash! Second-hand models plunge in price by as much as £18k in a year as electric car demand cools

Another key reason why used electric vehicles are less attractive is because new models can be far cheaper to run for those who can secure one as a company car. 

Electric cars currently benefit from benefit-in-kind taxation of just 2 per cent, which combined with salary sacrifice schemes makes them extremely cheap to run - especially when you consider that insurance and maintenance is included.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-11619661/Used-Tesla-values-come-crash-Prices-18k.html

JKenH

A video from an EV specialist explaining why, if you are a sales rep (or similar), you should choose an EV.

https://youtu.be/Uvtbsx-XrsQ

JKenH

JKenH said:

Tesla customers in China storm showrooms protesting missed discount

What should Tesla do in this situation? Will the same situation arise in the UK/Europe? How would you feel if you had just taken delivery of a new car and Tesla made a similar price cut (up to 25% according to the report)? Is it any different to finding the price of the new TV you bought before Christmas slashed in the Boxing Day sale?

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-storm-showrooms-protest/

Update: Tesla Will Not Compensate Protesters In China After EV Price Cuts

We recently reported about Tesla owners in China heading to local stores to either take advantage of the recent Model 3 and Model Y price cuts, or protest them. Now it seems Tesla has come forward to make it clear that it will not be compensating the protesters who bought their EVs at the end of 2022.

https://insideevs.com/news/630564/tesla-no-compensation-china-protesters-price-cuts/