EV Discussion thread

silverwhistle

Petriix said:

The point many of us make is that the public charging infrastructure, while clearly inadequate, is largely irrelevant to most current EV owners. We simply don't need to charge away from home very often and when we do we are dedicated enough to find the reliable charging options amongst the myriad broken ones.

What the real issue comes down to is the dichotomy between those who can charge from home (with reliable smart meter data) on a discounted EV tariff, and those who can't. 

Absolutely this (my bold). We can justify the extra capital costs for an EV for the advantages, the biggest being fuel costs. If we do so many miles for work then there is a cost in buying the range, but the odd long trip for most of us is not an issue and the cost may be a little time or inconvenience.

JKenH said:

when I post a lengthy report on charging that suggests the problem is getting worse, is the first reaction to try and find fault with the wording in the report and ignore the substance of it?

Because you have previously reported your own experiences and drawn wider conclusions from them. The rest of us  have pointed out that we do not share your experiences and have not come to the same conclusions, without denying that public charging needs to improve. Anybody who looks into it will see that Whitby, or North Yorkshire, Newhaven, Wales, Dorset and the like need serious improvement. But in general public charging is not "seriously inadequate" for the day to day operation of EVs for people with home chargers. We are not "vying" for chargers. Back to Petriix's point which encompasses cost and availability: that is the real issue for longer term adoption of EVs, not some individual being inconvenienced on a longer trip.

JKenH

silverwhistle said:

JKenH said:

when I post a lengthy report on charging that suggests the problem is getting worse, is the first reaction to try and find fault with the wording in the report and ignore the substance of it?

Because you have previously reported your own experiences and drawn wider conclusions from them. The rest of us  have pointed out that we do not share your experiences and have not come to the same conclusions, without denying that public charging needs to improve. Anybody who looks into it will see that Whitby, or North Yorkshire, Newhaven, Wales, Dorset and the like need serious improvement. But in general public charging is not "seriously inadequate" for the day to day operation of EVs for people with home chargers. We are not "vying" for chargers. Back to Petriix's point which encompasses cost and availability: that is the real issue for longer term adoption of EVs, not some individual being inconvenienced on a longer trip.

In your first sentence you seem to be suggesting that it follows people would reject the content of  the independent report on EV infrastructure without considering the content just because I had posted it. To criticise/dismiss a report without even reading it (the “I don’t need to I know what it will say” argument) is symptomatic of a closed mind. I am not actually accusing you of that (you may have read the report I don’t know) but you did pile in defending someone who was guilty of just that. 

As you say the rest of you don’t share my experiences of charging and have not come to the same conclusions; ipso facto my conclusions must be wrong. Effectively you are saying the problems I perceive with the charging network don’t exist. When I report 3 chargers in a row that don’t work it must somehow be my fault - it couldn’t possibly be that the chargers were faulty. I am accused of not planning enough. Or maybe there are problems with chargers but you don’t perceive these to be of any consequence to the user. The charger isn’t working, so what, it’s not the end of the word, sometimes I don’t have a mobile phone signal.

That sort of response is not uncommon where a certain group of people in society reject others experiences (either that they exist or have any impact on their lives) because they haven’t lived those experiences themselves - often accompanied by the attitude that people are to blame for their own bad life experiences. Those people with similar experiences and attitudes congregate together be it in real life or on forums. Someone then comes along who has had different experiences and says the system is broken and his views are rejected because the system works fine for them. 

I’ve never suffered the frustration and traumas when using the NHS but I don’t blame other people when they do nor would I reject out of hand a report which confirmed their experiences just because they weren’t mine. 

I think what I find most frustrating is that the most criticism of my stance on charging comes from those who rarely need to charge at public rapid chargers. You, yourself, admit you have only charged twice and Mart says he has such little experience of public charging that he has asked others from this forum for advice. The more you use the charging network the more likely you are to encounter problems of chargers being busy or broken. Those who use the same chargers regularly, e.g. on a route to or from work soon get to know which to use and which to avoid. I encountered 3 non functioning chargers before I found a working one on my way to Leeds Bradford airport in the summer. When I went again 7 weeks later I avoided those and went to the charging location where I had successfully charged the first time and still had a problem with one of the chargers. 

I also am irked by the suggestion that it can all be avoided with good planning and checking apps like ZapMap. It can’t. Those apps are not always updated, nor are some charging providers’ own resources. (I remember the story of a complaint to one charge provider that their online resource was showing the charger working when it hadn’t been for some time and the response was the charger had to be online to tell the network it wasn’t working.) You can’t (unless you have a Tesla) safely check while driving whether a charger you are heading for is free. 

I also find it annoying that people who don’t regularly charge at public charging stations suggest when I have had a problem that it is good to have a plan A,B,C and D. Don’t people realise that I and many others like me do just that and also often have a plan E,F,G and H… (I made a list of around 2 dozen chargers for a trip to Wales and back last year). But should you have to? How much extra time does that add both in planning and driving from one non working charger to the next, let alone time spent charging.  It’s not progress compared to filling up a petrol car.

When I first got an electric car it was all a great adventure like in the early days of motoring. I went out and tried a few chargers, got the apps and RFID cards and treated it as a challenge, which with the myriad apps and cards it was. I loved driving my EV and bought a better one and got rid of my ICE cars. In those early days though I didn’t seem to come across the non working chargers or queues that I did in recent months and that is a story repeated by many on social media. Maybe it was a honeymoon period or maybe things actually have got worse.

It’s fine if you just make the occasional long trip and have all day to make it, stopping for a meal where you can find a quiet pub with a charger but if your journey is time constrained it is a different matter. In the summer I came across a guy with an E-Niro (280 mile range) frustrated waiting for more than 35 minutes at the only charger at Northampton services on the M1. He was still there when I left (I was in our diesel motorhome). Next week I have a 390 mile round trip to a 11am funeral in Surrey (A1, M1, M25, M3). How much earlier would I need to set off to fit in 2 working chargers on the way down and still get there on time - how much extra time on top if the chargers I aim for are busy/not working? It’s not something I want to be late for. It is not just extra time but extra stress in an EV when you know time is against you and you can’t be sure you will find a working charger at your planned stop. I am very relieved that I am doing the trip in a petrol car that won’t even need filling up once. It’s just pure practicality.

You say “ Back to Petriix's point which encompasses cost and availability: that is the real issue for longer term adoption of EVs, not some individual being inconvenienced on a longer trip.” That sounds to me like ideology talking - we need to get everyone access to a charger but it doesn’t matter if people suffer inconvenience on a long trip. It should matter - for practical reasons. 

The problem for the long distance driver is not just with the number of chargers, it is the location. We just don’t have enough on major roads/motorways. Even Eric admits the chances of finding a charger at an MSA are slim. So the long distance driver can’t just stop as he passes a garage on the side of the road with a huge sign that can be seen quarter of a mile away or at motorway services, he has to go off route and find a MacDonalds or a pub with a charger but no guarantee it will be working or free. 

Anyway I digress. Why is it important not to inconvenience the long distance driver? Well, quite simply, if he rejects EVs as being too impractical/inconvenient for his needs he will like me go back to petrol or diesel. That will slow down the number of new EVs being bought and there will be less trickle down of secondhand vehicles. Secondly we are currently at the stage of early adopters who share their experiences with other potential EV drivers. People I knew were very surprised at my decision to go back to petrol and that cemented their views that EVs were not a practical proposition, further slowing down adoption.

Now I expect you will reject everything I have just said because it does not reflect your experience nor that of the people you share forum space with. However, it is good for all of us to hear the other side of the argument (and I certainly hear plenty of that) as just sometimes there might be something we hadn’t previously thought about that has merit. You may reject those opposing views and argue against them but we all gain a better understanding of why different people see the world differently if we take the time to read objectively what our opponents post/argue rather than contest it without reading it. (Before you raise  my comment to Eric on the stories about the trikes, tractors and dumper trucks, I did read the posts but not the links. I am now aware of the developments but as they are abroad and have little impact on my life I don’t feel the need to be further informed as I don’t intend to debate them).

JKenH

silverwhistle said:

JKenH said:

when I post a lengthy report on charging that suggests the problem is getting worse, is the first reaction to try and find fault with the wording in the report and ignore the substance of it?

Because you have previously reported your own experiences and drawn wider conclusions from them. The rest of us  have pointed out that we do not share your experiences and have not come to the same conclusions, without denying that public charging needs to improve.

I didn’t cover this point but the Novuna survey shows that my experience is quite representative of the wider EV driving public. 

65% frequently or occasionally have to queue for chargers, while 16% rarely have to queue. Only 4% never have to queue. Additionally over three quarters (76%) of EV drivers believe the UK’s charging infrastructure is not fit for purpose.

It just demonstrates that the contributors to this sub board (or rather the views expressed)  are not necessarily to be taken as representative of the wider EV driving public.

When it comes to queuing, one in five (20%) are fortunate enough to live in such a well-served area that they rarely (16%) or never (4%) have to queue.  Nevertheless almost a third (31%) of all BEV and PHEV drivers say they frequently have to queue for a charger, while a further third (34%) say they occasionally have to. 

Over three quarters (76%) of EV drivers believe the UK’s charging infrastructure is not fit for purpose,

https://www.novunavehiclesolutions.co.uk/media/eojek5ys/eve-report-final-version.pdf

Edit: removed surplus quotes and corrected Novuna spelling (again).

Grumpy_chap

HeHe

I obviously don't know what is behind this but I saw the scene in the photo below and it made me wonder whether this was the driver's way of overcoming range anxiety.  Silly I know, but still gave me a little giggle.

Then I wondered, if the EV was towed (using an appropriate rigid bar) with all four wheels in contact with the ground, would the EV then charge the battery as it goes?  
What would that do to the fuel consumption of the upfront pick-up?
My initial thought was the friction would be about the same between four tyres of the trailer or four tyres of the EV.  Perhaps even a slight gain because the weight of the trailer is omitted and less wind resistance as the EV is lower down.
Then I added in to the equation that there can be no free energy, so would the "drag" of the dynamo connected to the EV wheels increase the load on the pick-up proportionately over the same set-up seen with the trailer?

JKenH

Two Tiny EVs From Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance Win Japan Car Of The Year

Japan is embracing EVs it seems. It is not clear, though, where these are made.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2022/12/08/two-tiny-evs-from-nissan-mitsubishi-alliance-win-japan-car-of-the-year/

JKenH

Tesla says it is adding radar in its cars next month amid self-driving suite concerns

https://electrek.co/2022/12/06/tesla-radar-car-next-month-self-driving-suite-concerns/


It is getting increasingly difficult to have any confidence in Elon Musk. First we have the 4680 debacle and now he has flip/flopped on radar. What was the decision to remove radar all about in the first place and what happens to the Teslas sold with FSD but built without radar?

Petriix

The point about planning is made very clearly in your anecdotes. An E-Niro driver has an enormous amount of flexibility in where they charge. > 200 miles of range in all but the worst conditions means you'll be driving past a large number of chargers on your journey.

Rocking up at a site with just one charger in Northampton when you consider the vast number of rapid chargers around Milton Keynes is a significant failure to adequately plan. There are Instavolt chargers just off the motorway and a whole host of other choices not too far away.

It would be great if every service station had lots of reliable chargers. They don't. While ZapMap isn't always reliable for telling you if a charger is in use or out of service, it clearly tells you how many chargers are at each location. Single charger sites are only ever a bonus or an emergency option, never plan A or B. 

shinytop

Petriix said:

The point about planning is made very clearly in your anecdotes. An E-Niro driver has an enormous amount of flexibility in where they charge. > 200 miles of range in all but the worst conditions means you'll be driving past a large number of chargers on your journey.

Rocking up at a site with just one charger in Northampton when you consider the vast number of rapid chargers around Milton Keynes is a significant failure to adequately plan. There are Instavolt chargers just off the motorway and a whole host of other choices not too far away.

It would be great if every service station had lots of reliable chargers. They don't. While ZapMap isn't always reliable for telling you if a charger is in use or out of service, it clearly tells you how many chargers are at each location. Single charger sites are only ever a bonus or an emergency option, never plan A or B. 

It's not just a 'site' in Northampton is it, it's a motorway service station!! That's the one place you should be able to find a working charger.  Expensive maybe but somewhere you can rely on.  Having to come off the motorway and faff around Milton Keynes is not really acceptable to most people.  

I'm surprised EV owners don't make more of a fuss instead of pretending everything's OK.  Imagine if they shut all but one petrol pump at Northampton services and even that only worked some of the time and you needed an app to access it.   

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

HeHe

I obviously don't know what is behind this but I saw the scene in the photo below and it made me wonder whether this was the driver's way of overcoming range anxiety.  Silly I know, but still gave me a little giggle.

Then I wondered, if the EV was towed (using an appropriate rigid bar) with all four wheels in contact with the ground, would the EV then charge the battery as it goes?  
What would that do to the fuel consumption of the upfront pick-up?
My initial thought was the friction would be about the same between four tyres of the trailer or four tyres of the EV.  Perhaps even a slight gain because the weight of the trailer is omitted and less wind resistance as the EV is lower down.
Then I added in to the equation that there can be no free energy, so would the "drag" of the dynamo connected to the EV wheels increase the load on the pick-up proportionately over the same set-up seen with the trailer?

Not a silly thought. There's a really good Youtube channel called Engineering Explained. They tried this a few years back. The fuel economy of the Ford Raptor went from terrible, to horrific, but the Tesla got a lot of charge via regen.

Can You Charge A Tesla By Towing It? (With Ford Raptor)

Can Towing A Tesla Model 3 With A Ford Raptor Recharge It? The Straight Pipes high mileage Ford Raptor is used to tow the Tesla Model 3 Performance while driving around Toronto Motorsports Park.

 Can you recharge a Tesla Model 3 by towing it? That's a great question, and we're going to to use a Ford Raptor to find out. We'll also need to determine how quickly a Tesla can be recharged by towing it, and how far you'd need to travel to fully recharge the battery. The Tesla Model 3 can charge its battery through regenerative braking, where the wheels of the car force the electric motor to spin, which forces a charge into the battery. This is used to slow the car down, and improve its efficiency. However, if you tow the car, you might be able to use that regenerative braking to charge the battery, that is what this video seeks to find out.

On top of this, we'll determine what's more efficient - Option 1: traveling with a Ford Raptor from A to B, or Option 2: Using a Raptor to tow a Tesla, then driving the Tesla from A to B. To do this, we'll need to determine the Tesla's efficiency, the Ford's efficiency, and the Ford's efficiency while towing. Then, using the regen rate of the Tesla, we can find out what the Tesla's true fuel economy is while using a Ford Raptor to tow it. It's a super fun video with a fascinating conclusion; have a watch!

Petriix

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

The point about planning is made very clearly in your anecdotes. An E-Niro driver has an enormous amount of flexibility in where they charge. > 200 miles of range in all but the worst conditions means you'll be driving past a large number of chargers on your journey.

Rocking up at a site with just one charger in Northampton when you consider the vast number of rapid chargers around Milton Keynes is a significant failure to adequately plan. There are Instavolt chargers just off the motorway and a whole host of other choices not too far away.

It would be great if every service station had lots of reliable chargers. They don't. While ZapMap isn't always reliable for telling you if a charger is in use or out of service, it clearly tells you how many chargers are at each location. Single charger sites are only ever a bonus or an emergency option, never plan A or B. 

It's not just a 'site' in Northampton is it, it's a motorway service station!! That's the one place you should be able to find a working charger.  Expensive maybe but somewhere you can rely on.  Having to come off the motorway and faff around Milton Keynes is not really acceptable to most people.  

I'm surprised EV owners don't make more of a fuss instead of pretending everything's OK.  Imagine if they shut all but one petrol pump at Northampton services and even that only worked some of the time and you needed an app to access it.   

If you know that the infrastructure isn't ideal then it's hardly rocket surgery to understand that some locations will be better than others. No one is pretending that everything is fine. We're just pointing out (ad nauseum) that a) it's mostly not an issue for day-to-day driving for most driving patterns, and b) when you do need to charge away from home, an amount of prior research is absolutely necessary to avoid issues.

It's pointless to expect to be able to charge at every motorway services, even though it should be the ideal place it doesn't take much work to figure out that it's not. Either you plan ahead or you run into problems. That doesn't mean EVs are unusable or everyone needs to wait for the infrastructure to catch up before making the switch.

Mid journey charging is becoming less important as range increases. The significant issue is 'home' charging for those who don't have a private driveway at their house. At the moment it's the biggest barrier to entry.