EV Discussion thread

JKenH

michaels said:

What is going to be interesting is what demand there is in the second hand market for EVs once supply increases.

Broad generalisation but I suspect that most new (premium eg EV segment) buyers have off street parking whereas a higher proportion of second hand car buyers only have on street parking where electricity prices are much higher.  Congestion/pollution charge zones will obviously help drive EV demand in the SH market but the biggest one in London is going to lose the exemption soon.

Is it generally manufacturers who are at risk re the value of returning leases?

..and PCPs.

The AA have just issued a report on charging costs which suggests that on street slow charging works out quite expensive - higher in fact than fast chargers (although there are savings with subscriptions but the price of the subscription also needs to be factored in). I’m not convinced of the figures as AA have assumed an efficiency of 4.25 miles/kWh (achievable in some cars/scenarios but perhaps not a representative year round average) to calculate charging cost but that’s not an argument I’m looking to pursue at the moment as we all have different views/experiences. 

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2022/12/05/aa-launches-monthly-report-to-track-charge-point-options

silverwhistle

EricMears said:

Semantics is the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. Using a term without defining what it means is rather pointless !

Of course I'd like to see more rapid chargers available but it would be dishonest to suggest that every existing one has a tailback of would-be users.  

Of course language is important, as is the understanding of context and knowing that when The Sun on page 3 and the Financial Times are talking about "assets" they often mean different things..

I frequent EV forums and just don't see the amount of "EV enthusiasts (perhaps because they have home chargers and rarely use public charging) try and shoot down any criticism of the charging network" that JKenH does. I see plenty of criticism both of coverage and maintenance, constructive advice to new or prospective users, but a frustration with some of the misleading anti-EV information that is out there. FWIW I have very, very rarely used public charging, so I'm prepared to give advice to people with similar usage patterns. I wouldn't presume to advise those road warriors out there.

Martyn1981

silverwhistle said:

EricMears said:

Semantics is the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. Using a term without defining what it means is rather pointless !

Of course I'd like to see more rapid chargers available but it would be dishonest to suggest that every existing one has a tailback of would-be users.  

Of course language is important, as is the understanding of context and knowing that when The Sun on page 3 and the Financial Times are talking about "assets" they often mean different things..

I frequent EV forums and just don't see the amount of "EV enthusiasts (perhaps because they have home chargers and rarely use public charging) try and shoot down any criticism of the charging network" that JKenH does. I see plenty of criticism both of coverage and maintenance, constructive advice to new or prospective users, but a frustration with some of the misleading anti-EV information that is out there. FWIW I have very, very rarely used public charging, so I'm prepared to give advice to people with similar usage patterns. I wouldn't presume to advise those road warriors out there.

Same here. I may have missed something/somebody, but I'm pretty sure on here that nobody has said that the UK charging infrastructure is perfect. I'm sure we've all said it needs improving, over and over. So I do find it weird that we keep being told that we're saying the opposite.

For long distance motorway driving we should have lots of options and reliability, so this isn't perfect, but hopefully Tesla slowly opening up more and more Supercharger locations to non-Tesla vehicles is a partial fix. Though I doubt they plan to expand their network to a level where they can take all the overflow. Then again, they do seem to be able to manufacture chargers at a fraction of the cost of other companies, so maybe there is a market for them?

Petriix

The point many of us make is that the public charging infrastructure, while clearly inadequate, is largely irrelevant to most current EV owners. We simply don't need to charge away from home very often and when we do we are dedicated enough to find the reliable charging options amongst the myriad broken ones.

What the real issue comes down to is the dichotomy between those who can charge from home (with reliable smart meter data) on a discounted EV tariff, and those who can't. The latter are massively disadvantaged compared to the former. Even with ubiquitous on-street charging, the inflated price makes it prohibitively expensive for most, if the high cost of entry for EVs wasn't already so.

Martyn1981

Yep, lots of things slowing down the transition. I'm not sure when things will improve significantly, but I'd hope by 2025 a lot of the factors will improve. Then again, additional demand on resources may keep BEV (battery) prices high for longer. Bit disconcerting to see the increase in price for the upcoming ID3.

I think the Gov, despite all their other woes, should be trying to get ahead of the charging curve, in order to lift concerns, rather than add to them.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

silverwhistle said:

EricMears said:

Semantics is the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. Using a term without defining what it means is rather pointless !

Of course I'd like to see more rapid chargers available but it would be dishonest to suggest that every existing one has a tailback of would-be users.  

Of course language is important, as is the understanding of context and knowing that when The Sun on page 3 and the Financial Times are talking about "assets" they often mean different things..

I frequent EV forums and just don't see the amount of "EV enthusiasts (perhaps because they have home chargers and rarely use public charging) try and shoot down any criticism of the charging network" that JKenH does. I see plenty of criticism both of coverage and maintenance, constructive advice to new or prospective users, but a frustration with some of the misleading anti-EV information that is out there. FWIW I have very, very rarely used public charging, so I'm prepared to give advice to people with similar usage patterns. I wouldn't presume to advise those road warriors out there.

Same here. I may have missed something/somebody, but I'm pretty sure on here that nobody has said that the UK charging infrastructure is perfect. I'm sure we've all said it needs improving, over and over. So I do find it weird that we keep being told that we're saying the opposite.

For long distance motorway driving we should have lots of options and reliability, so this isn't perfect, but hopefully Tesla slowly opening up more and more Supercharger locations to non-Tesla vehicles is a partial fix. Though I doubt they plan to expand their network to a level where they can take all the overflow. Then again, they do seem to be able to manufacture chargers at a fraction of the cost of other companies, so maybe there is a market for them?

Well back in June when I recounted a bad charging experience you said “ We've been fully BEV for two years now, and have had no problems whatsoever” and went on to suggest that “ perhaps the solution would be for BEV'ers to give him some tips/lessons”.

If I have understood this right, we are all agreed charging needs improving, (any dissenters on here please speak up) so why, when I post a lengthy report on charging that suggests the problem is getting worse, is the first reaction to try and find fault with the wording in the report and ignore the substance of it? No “thanks” are given (I don’t expect any on a tribal board such as this) but “thanks” do go to the post querying the use of the word “vying” in the report, I.e. the article is seen in a negative light.

The problem for those who are ideologically intent on moving everyone out of ICE vehicles to BEVs is that, to acknowledge the public charging infrastructure is seriously inadequate, will put people off making the transition. The likes of @Grumpy_chap and @shinytop and Joe Public might then think twice about ditching their ICEvs. So instead we get comments like well, maybe it isn’t perfect but it’s not a total disaster either and in two years of BEV ownership I’ve never had a problem, or the charging infrastructure is improving all the time, or it’s down to inexperience, or with adequate planning and if you stay off the motorways you’ll be fine, or get a Tesla. 

I agree entirely with the comment above from @Petriix about how massively disadvantaged people who can’t charge from home are and I would add, not only financially disadvantaged (see my post about the AA report), but also massively inconvenienced. 

I loved driving my EV and would like still to be in one. With the present charging infrastructure it just, though, isn’t worth the hassle/time for me at the moment and that is from someone who can still “charge my EV at 5.5p/kWh”. I didn’t feel that way in my first year of EV ownership: it’s just the state of the charging network has deteriorated.

Almost everyone with an EV in this board (@Solarchaser excepted) seems to primarily charge from home with a cheap domestic tariff, as I did, but as @Petriix points out there is a different world out there for those who have to rely on public chargers and EV take up will eventually stall if nothing is done about it. It’s not just that it’s bad and needs improving but in relative terms it is getting worse both in terms of number if chargers/EV and the maintenance of the chargers. (Someone on Facebook reported 7 chargers he tried successively not working - my record is just 3). 

Given the adverse reaction received to my posts and platitudes expressed on charging I can only presume the folks on here don’t realise just how bad it is out there. 

Martyn1981

JKenH said:

Martyn1981 said:

silverwhistle said:

EricMears said:

Semantics is the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. Using a term without defining what it means is rather pointless !

Of course I'd like to see more rapid chargers available but it would be dishonest to suggest that every existing one has a tailback of would-be users.  

Of course language is important, as is the understanding of context and knowing that when The Sun on page 3 and the Financial Times are talking about "assets" they often mean different things..

I frequent EV forums and just don't see the amount of "EV enthusiasts (perhaps because they have home chargers and rarely use public charging) try and shoot down any criticism of the charging network" that JKenH does. I see plenty of criticism both of coverage and maintenance, constructive advice to new or prospective users, but a frustration with some of the misleading anti-EV information that is out there. FWIW I have very, very rarely used public charging, so I'm prepared to give advice to people with similar usage patterns. I wouldn't presume to advise those road warriors out there.

Same here. I may have missed something/somebody, but I'm pretty sure on here that nobody has said that the UK charging infrastructure is perfect. I'm sure we've all said it needs improving, over and over. So I do find it weird that we keep being told that we're saying the opposite.

For long distance motorway driving we should have lots of options and reliability, so this isn't perfect, but hopefully Tesla slowly opening up more and more Supercharger locations to non-Tesla vehicles is a partial fix. Though I doubt they plan to expand their network to a level where they can take all the overflow. Then again, they do seem to be able to manufacture chargers at a fraction of the cost of other companies, so maybe there is a market for them?

Well back in June when I recounted a bad charging experience you said “ We've been fully BEV for two years now, and have had no problems whatsoever” and went on to suggest that “ perhaps the solution would be for BEV'ers to give him some tips/lessons”.

I thought I suggested that CW and Eric give you some tips (at least that was my intention). As they had the same BEV and battery size as you, but seemed to disagree with you over the scale of the problem, or at least aren't complaining all the time. Thought I was being helpful.

Both have given me tips and advice, in fact quite recently, as they have more experience of the general charging infrastructure than I, and also know where to look for plan B, plan C etc. I'm sure they could have helped you.

Edit - Probably worth mentioning this again, though it won't be well received, but this isn't the Motoring Board, it's the Green & Ethical Board, so rightly (or wrongly) folk on here may be enjoying, or willing to tolerate, a different BEV experience to the average driver.

This may not change the fundamental issues regarding charging etc, but may explain some differences in opinion.


Edit 2

Given the adverse reaction received to my posts and platitudes expressed on charging I can only presume the folks on here don’t realise just how bad it is out there.

My bold - Are you sure you're seeing this? I can only assume that there's a significant difference between what's being written, and what you are seeing.

Maybe we aren't all wrong.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

JKenH said:

Martyn1981 said:

silverwhistle said:

EricMears said:

Semantics is the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. Using a term without defining what it means is rather pointless !

Of course I'd like to see more rapid chargers available but it would be dishonest to suggest that every existing one has a tailback of would-be users.  

Of course language is important, as is the understanding of context and knowing that when The Sun on page 3 and the Financial Times are talking about "assets" they often mean different things..

I frequent EV forums and just don't see the amount of "EV enthusiasts (perhaps because they have home chargers and rarely use public charging) try and shoot down any criticism of the charging network" that JKenH does. I see plenty of criticism both of coverage and maintenance, constructive advice to new or prospective users, but a frustration with some of the misleading anti-EV information that is out there. FWIW I have very, very rarely used public charging, so I'm prepared to give advice to people with similar usage patterns. I wouldn't presume to advise those road warriors out there.

Same here. I may have missed something/somebody, but I'm pretty sure on here that nobody has said that the UK charging infrastructure is perfect. I'm sure we've all said it needs improving, over and over. So I do find it weird that we keep being told that we're saying the opposite.

For long distance motorway driving we should have lots of options and reliability, so this isn't perfect, but hopefully Tesla slowly opening up more and more Supercharger locations to non-Tesla vehicles is a partial fix. Though I doubt they plan to expand their network to a level where they can take all the overflow. Then again, they do seem to be able to manufacture chargers at a fraction of the cost of other companies, so maybe there is a market for them?

Well back in June when I recounted a bad charging experience you said “ We've been fully BEV for two years now, and have had no problems whatsoever” and went on to suggest that “ perhaps the solution would be for BEV'ers to give him some tips/lessons”.

I thought I suggested that CW and Eric give you some tips (at least that was my intention). As they had the same BEV and battery size as you, but seemed to disagree with you over the scale of the problem, or at least aren't complaining all the time. Thought I was being helpful.

Both have given me tips and advice, in fact quite recently, as they have more experience of the general charging infrastructure than I, and also know where to look for plan B, plan C etc. I'm sure they could have helped you.

Edit - Probably worth mentioning this again, though it won't be well received, but this isn't the Motoring Board, it's the Green & Ethical Board, so rightly (or wrongly) folk on here may be enjoying, or willing to tolerate, a different BEV experience to the average driver.

This may not change the fundamental issues regarding charging etc, but may explain some differences in opinion.

It’s actually the Green and Ethical Money Saving board which suggests we discuss the various green and ethical ways of saving money. You, I am aware, see it as a board for discussing green and ethical issues, for instance litigation against oil companies, which has absolutely no money saving element to it. 

Until the gas price rose it was always considered legitimate on here to recommend heating water by gas in preference to using an immersion heater and the financial implications of gas vs heat pumps.

I accept that if you choose an EV for ideological (ethical) reasons, any criticism of EVs or charging infrastructure will be irrelevant to you but bear in mind some of us might be interested in the practical and implications  of running an EV as an alternative to an ICE vehicle. 

If your suggestion of tips on charging was genuinely made in the spirit of helpfulness and understanding you would no doubt have been a little more sympathetic to the charging experiences I had shared.

EricMears

JKenH said:

. . . . why, when I post a lengthy report on charging that suggests the problem is getting worse, is the first reaction to try and find fault with the wording in the report and ignore the substance of it? 

Because any 'report' that suggests the problem is already a complete disaster is so obviously biased that it's not worth reading any further.

I've never said we don't need more charging facilities (indeed the more we can have the better) but publishing something that suggests 'problem' is far worse than it really is cannot help but put off would-be EV buyers.

JKenH

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

. . . . why, when I post a lengthy report on charging that suggests the problem is getting worse, is the first reaction to try and find fault with the wording in the report and ignore the substance of it? 

Because any 'report' that suggests the problem is already a complete disaster is so obviously biased that it's not worth reading any further.

I've never said we don't need more charging facilities (indeed the more we can have the better) but publishing something that suggests 'problem' is far worse than it really is cannot help but put off would-be EV buyers.

From one quote you decided it was biased against your prejudices and therefore not worth reading. Should I be surprised?

If you had read as far as the first three paragraphs of the foreword to the report you would have seen

At Novuna Vehicle Solutions we operate a fleet of over 98,000 vehicles. As a leading advocate for zero emission vehicles, we’ve already electrified 35% of our total car fleet and we have a clear commitment to electrify 100% of our car and small van fleet (3.5 tonnes and under) and 50% of our funded van fleet (vehicles over 3.5. tonnes) by 2030.