EV Discussion thread

Martyn1981

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

The point about planning is made very clearly in your anecdotes. An E-Niro driver has an enormous amount of flexibility in where they charge. > 200 miles of range in all but the worst conditions means you'll be driving past a large number of chargers on your journey.

Rocking up at a site with just one charger in Northampton when you consider the vast number of rapid chargers around Milton Keynes is a significant failure to adequately plan. There are Instavolt chargers just off the motorway and a whole host of other choices not too far away.

It would be great if every service station had lots of reliable chargers. They don't. While ZapMap isn't always reliable for telling you if a charger is in use or out of service, it clearly tells you how many chargers are at each location. Single charger sites are only ever a bonus or an emergency option, never plan A or B. 

It's not just a 'site' in Northampton is it, it's a motorway service station!! That's the one place you should be able to find a working charger.  Expensive maybe but somewhere you can rely on.  Having to come off the motorway and faff around Milton Keynes is not really acceptable to most people.  

I'm surprised EV owners don't make more of a fuss instead of pretending everything's OK.  Imagine if they shut all but one petrol pump at Northampton services and even that only worked some of the time and you needed an app to access it.   

If you know that the infrastructure isn't ideal then it's hardly rocket surgery to understand that some locations will be better than others. No one is pretending that everything is fine. We're just pointing out (ad nauseum) that a) it's mostly not an issue for day-to-day driving for most driving patterns, and b) when you do need to charge away from home, an amount of prior research is absolutely necessary to avoid issues.

It's pointless to expect to be able to charge at every motorway services, even though it should be the ideal place it doesn't take much work to figure out that it's not. Either you plan ahead or you run into problems. That doesn't mean EVs are unusable or everyone needs to wait for the infrastructure to catch up before making the switch.

Mid journey charging is becoming less important as range increases. The significant issue is 'home' charging for those who don't have a private driveway at their house. At the moment it's the biggest barrier to entry. 

My thoughts too, and that's why I previously mentioned that this is an EV thread on the Green & Ethical Board, not the Motoring section.

Should the charging network be close to perfect - yes, of course.
Should the charging network be close to perfect today - of course not.

It's not as if we even have the perfect solution yet, or if we do, we don't know it yet. What is the perfect charger, charger speed, charger cost (to install), I don't know. So how can we roll them out yet. And where do we place them, we can all make assumptions, but until we see the usage patterns develop we can't be certain where it's best to locate all of the rapid chargers. [Or to be fair, where to deploy enough for that near perfect service, today.]

So for now we will have those, for whom a BEV works exceptionally well. Great.

Plus those who are willing to undergo a little inconvienence on average (ranging from none, to huge) for the pleasure of driving a BEV, the G&E issues, or cost savings (or combination of).

How much inconvienience a non G&E person (not a criticism) should be expected to endure is tricky to consider. For AGW and pollution issues some should be acceptable. But not too much*. But even then solutions are available, there's the longer range BEV's (as you mention), to minimise charger use. Then there's the Tesla vehicles with good range and an excellent and extensive charging network. And still growing, the non-Tesla BEV's able to use Tesla Superchargers.

[*Due to the externality costs of AGW and pollution, we need folk to change to BEV's, so BEV's themselves can't then be an unacceptable 'penalty' to use.]

If a business user simply has to have fast and reliable charging, then a Tesla BEV is an option. But a price premium.

So, long waffle just to agree with you, there are lots of choices and solutions. Not a solution for everyone today, far from it, but also not insurmountable.

For those that can only afford (or want) a smaller range cheaper BEV, then lots of long distance driving will result in more problems, than someone who buys a longer range BEV, potentially with better charging options. There's also the issue of charging speeds, which will be more important to those carrying out more of a business trip style 'splash and dash' stop, than to some of us happy for a longer break. So for current BEV users I think this may come under the old saying 'there's no such thing as bad weather, only unsuitable clothing'. [Ironically, bad weather does impact BEV (and ICE) efficiency!]


I do agree that the bigger issue is rolling out solutions for those where home charging is difficult or impossible. Rapid charging will evolve as there's money involved, and that's when markets develop and improve.

How about a 'simple' solution for all - in road induction charging. Charge as you drive ...... not holding my breath, but lots of trials.

JKenH

Back to Green and Ethical Money Saving - or perhaps not much saving. There’s quite a bit of chat on Facebook at the moment about the impact this cold weather is having on range - a few anecdotes below. I don’t suppose anyone on here is suffering poor range/high consumption so make of it what you will.

e- Niro

So I’m falling out of love with my 2022 Niro 2 💔 Things started well but a few things have cropped up over the month I have had it:

-I am currently having around 2.2miles/kWh. Tyres are at 38psi all round, always drive in eco mode and I don’t have a lead foot. Full charge it says 230miles and I see endless posts here saying 4 miles/kWh plus and 280mile plus range on a full charge. Granted it’s 1’C here at the moment but I don’t think that should effectively double the consumption? Car feels fine and nothing is scraping/dragging otherwise.

Corsa - e 

Interesting chat about range today with a driving instructor. He and his colleagues use a Vauxhall Corsa. In these temperatures, they are getting only about 60-70 mile range, even when practicing city driving and maneuvering. Their cars are going back to the main dealer here in Norfolk, but said that without being able to charge at home, their Corsa's were unsuitable for winter as driving tuition cars..  You do have interesting conversations at the chargers.

I've been pootling and driving briskly today, but even with a heat pump, I'm planning my longer routes more carefully now.

and from the same thread.

I’ve driven from south wales to Heathrow and back today. I also have a Corsa-e and yes I second that. The range is awful especially with the cold weather. Only managed to make it to Membury services before needing to charge. Membury is 75 miles away and I was getting really low on charge as I was arriving. 280 mile round trip and I had to stop and charge 3 times. Not ideal really lol

ditto

I've got a Corsa-e and its not quite that bad. Getting 120-130 miles. Return from Exeter to Bristol up the motorway last weekend averaged 3.2 miles/kwh. Heating on the whole time, though it wasn't as cold as the last 48 hours

The Corsa -e was one of the cars I had been thinking about as a runabout but this is a bit worrying. WLTP range is over 200 miles.

and another Stellantis variant.

I have an ec4 and I am really struggling with the range now that the weather's colder 

I noticed last year when I drove to Wales in my Leaf that on a cold day my economy rose from around 2 mpk (without any heating on as a test) to nearer 4mpk as the battery warmed up so short trips, normally the EV’s strong point are  a negative in winter. Of course if you precondition the battery it will make a big difference but of course that takes energy as well and for a short trip might actually cost you more.

JKenH

Norway and electric cars: why the country loves EVs

Interesting (well I thought so) article on charging in Norway. Things aren’t much rosier than in the UK it seems.

We have more than 500,000 electric vehicles and there are 4,500 CCS and CHAdeMO charging stations in Norway – and that’s just rapid charging; I haven’t counted the slower Type 2 chargers, of which there are around 20,000,” Berve informs us. “The EU has a goal that there should be around 10 EVs per chargepoint, but at the moment we have around 120 EVs to a chargepoint, which is taking a massive toll on the transition to EVs.

“We’ve got an increasing number of chargers in urban areas, but we still have a long way to go,” she’d told us. “Most people who have purchased an EV have access to a home chargepoint, so we haven’t really seen the difficulty of what it’s like to own an EV without a charger.

“But we have numbers indicating that it will absolutely be a problem. There are a lot of people who don’t have access to a charging point – it needs to get better for people who have street parking, as most of the charging infrastructure in cities has been built around parking garages and commercial areas.”

But the consolation is that the UK has a better ratio of EVs to chargers, as well as a simpler payment system. There are lessons both countries can learn from one another, it seems.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/features/356121/electric-cars-norway-why-country-love-evs

Spies

Would I be right thinking a 22kwh zoe is likely to get around 60 miles in cold weather? 

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

Should the charging network be close to perfect - yes, of course.
Should the charging network be close to perfect today - of course not.

So for now we will have those, for whom a BEV works exceptionally well. Great.

Plus those who are willing to undergo a little inconvienence on average (ranging from none, to huge) for the pleasure of driving a BEV, the G&E issues, or cost savings (or combination of).

How much inconvienience a non G&E person (not a criticism) should be expected to endure is tricky to consider.

I did not read the comments higher up thread that the charging network needs to be perfect, but that what there is should work and should have redundancy built in.

The comment against a lack of working facility at Northampton Services was that planning meant you could divert into Milton Keynes where there is far more charging infrastructure.  Well, needing to charge en-route already requires a bit more tolerance than simply filling a petrol car but this can be offset by the need to take breaks as an individual so you can feed the car at the same time as feeding yourself.  I think it is also reasonable to suggest that the driver needing to charge on a motorway journey is looking for speed as a benefit.  Adding a detour as well is not something I would consider many will be keen to embrace.

You've linked the early adopters as being G&E.  I wonder how many chose an EV for G&E reasons? 
Compared to how many for low BIK? 
Compared to how many who just like to have the latest thing?
I don't know the answers to that, but it might be something that would influence how to increase the take-up further.

As take-up increases, the level of inconvenience that is tolerated is likely to be a reducing metric.
I have also seen over the past couple of years that the inconvenience is reducing as battery capacity increases and charging networks improve.
With time (and potentially not a massive amount of time) that concerns may be set aside.

Costs to enter remain a challenge and that seems to be an increasing challenge rather than reducing challenge.  I read today that the face-lifted MG5 will be "from" >£30k and the 2023 electric Astra "from" £35k.  Even if I set aside my "hobby-horse" comparison to equivalent ICE, these are prices that most people simply cannot afford.  

thevilla

JKenH said:

Back to Green and Ethical Money Saving - or perhaps not much saving. There’s quite a bit of chat on Facebook at the moment about the impact this cold weather is having on range - a few anecdotes below. I don’t suppose anyone on here is suffering poor range/high consumption so make of it what you will.

e- Niro

So I’m falling out of love with my 2022 Niro 2 💔 Things started well but a few things have cropped up over the month I have had it:

-I am currently having around 2.2miles/kWh. Tyres are at 38psi all round, always drive in eco mode and I don’t have a lead foot. Full charge it says 230miles and I see endless posts here saying 4 miles/kWh plus and 280mile plus range on a full charge. Granted it’s 1’C here at the moment but I don’t think that should effectively double the consumption? Car feels fine and nothing is scraping/dragging otherwise.

Corsa - e 

Interesting chat about range today with a driving instructor. He and his colleagues use a Vauxhall Corsa. In these temperatures, they are getting only about 60-70 mile range, even when practicing city driving and maneuvering. Their cars are going back to the main dealer here in Norfolk, but said that without being able to charge at home, their Corsa's were unsuitable for winter as driving tuition cars..  You do have interesting conversations at the chargers.

I've been pootling and driving briskly today, but even with a heat pump, I'm planning my longer routes more carefully now.

and from the same thread.

I’ve driven from south wales to Heathrow and back today. I also have a Corsa-e and yes I second that. The range is awful especially with the cold weather. Only managed to make it to Membury services before needing to charge. Membury is 75 miles away and I was getting really low on charge as I was arriving. 280 mile round trip and I had to stop and charge 3 times. Not ideal really lol

ditto

I've got a Corsa-e and its not quite that bad. Getting 120-130 miles. Return from Exeter to Bristol up the motorway last weekend averaged 3.2 miles/kwh. Heating on the whole time, though it wasn't as cold as the last 48 hours

The Corsa -e was one of the cars I had been thinking about as a runabout but this is a bit worrying. WLTP range is over 200 miles.

and another Stellantis variant.

I have an ec4 and I am really struggling with the range now that the weather's colder 

I noticed last year when I drove to Wales in my Leaf that on a cold day my economy rose from around 2 mpk (without any heating on as a test) to nearer 4mpk as the battery warmed up so short trips, normally the EV’s strong point are  a negative in winter. Of course if you precondition the battery it will make a big difference but of course that takes energy as well and for a short trip might actually cost you more.

Short journeys in our 62kwh (56)? Leaf In cold weather we're looking at 2+ m/kWh.  Pre warmed for a trip to bhx last week, approx 45 miles, 3+m/kWh.

Still far better than burning dead dinosaurs.

Petriix

No, the comment about Northampton was not suggesting diverting to Milton Keynes, I was merely pointing out that there were many chargers a short distance away on the same route. No diversion necessary, just stop slightly earlier or later in your journey.

But you also raised a good point about journey speed. Personally I find it far better to drive more direct routes on slower roads. Motorways are incredibly inefficient.

As for winter range: yes, we're all experiencing lower range; as we have always done. Those of us who drove shorter range EVs in the past are intimately aware of the compromises, trying to eek out the last few miles by turning the heating off and slowing to a crawl.

Luckily I do fewer long journeys in the winter. The first part of each journey is brutal as the cabin and battery warm up, then it plateaus at generally being a bit worse than normal. Headwinds or standing water are killers.

But it's all part of the bigger picture. In the summer I average around 220 miles per 100% (48.8kWh) full charge* whereas it's around 200 over the whole year. I tend to drive quite economically so it could easily be worse for someone with a heavy right foot. 

*I don't actually drain the battery from 100% to 0. On the occasional long journey I might arrive home on ~5% but without risk of 'running out'. I usually don't use more than 50% in a day - mostly it's 15-20%. I'll only bother charging from the grid when it dips below 50% back up to 80%. Otherwise I'll only charge to full once per month to keep the cells balanced or in advance of a long trip. 

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Should the charging network be close to perfect - yes, of course.
Should the charging network be close to perfect today - of course not.

So for now we will have those, for whom a BEV works exceptionally well. Great.

Plus those who are willing to undergo a little inconvienence on average (ranging from none, to huge) for the pleasure of driving a BEV, the G&E issues, or cost savings (or combination of).

How much inconvienience a non G&E person (not a criticism) should be expected to endure is tricky to consider.

I did not read the comments higher up thread that the charging network needs to be perfect, but that what there is should work and should have redundancy built in.

The comment against a lack of working facility at Northampton Services was that planning meant you could divert into Milton Keynes where there is far more charging infrastructure.  Well, needing to charge en-route already requires a bit more tolerance than simply filling a petrol car but this can be offset by the need to take breaks as an individual so you can feed the car at the same time as feeding yourself.  I think it is also reasonable to suggest that the driver needing to charge on a motorway journey is looking for speed as a benefit.  Adding a detour as well is not something I would consider many will be keen to embrace.

You've linked the early adopters as being G&E.  I wonder how many chose an EV for G&E reasons? 
Compared to how many for low BIK? 
Compared to how many who just like to have the latest thing?
I don't know the answers to that, but it might be something that would influence how to increase the take-up further.

As take-up increases, the level of inconvenience that is tolerated is likely to be a reducing metric.
I have also seen over the past couple of years that the inconvenience is reducing as battery capacity increases and charging networks improve.
With time (and potentially not a massive amount of time) that concerns may be set aside.

Costs to enter remain a challenge and that seems to be an increasing challenge rather than reducing challenge.  I read today that the face-lifted MG5 will be "from" >£30k and the 2023 electric Astra "from" £35k.  Even if I set aside my "hobby-horse" comparison to equivalent ICE, these are prices that most people simply cannot afford.  

Hiya. My bold - Don't think I said that, but sorry if that's how it reads. I was thinking of reasons why for some, today, the less than perfect charging network will be acceptable, such as for G&E reasons. As you say, the BIK (I'd missed that one) will be another reason for some to accept the situation. In fact the BIK reduction is brilliant. I do think the Gov should be doing more for charging, and whilst the PIG was a great initiative, and I was sad to see it go for lower value BEV's, I do see their point, as demand seemed to be exceeding supply anyway. So hats off to the BiK policy, and also the reasonable(?) policy they have now of raising it slowly.

Funnily enough, I'm not sure about your next line (second bold). Not disagreeing, just can't think it through as there are so many spinning pates. If BEV's roll out for more city drivers and shorter distances, plus as you say (and Petrix mentioned) ranges increase, then the rapid charging infrastructure woes may lessen? Alternatively, if the rollout of rapid chargers continues to fall behind the curve of BEV's, then it may get worse. But .... famous last words now, I do see this as a Gov policy failure. I don't see why the network is so poor. Yes it's early days, but the situation has been around long enough for some policies ..... perhaps.

[Edit - re-reading it, I think I got it wrong, and you are saying it will be tolerated less (I read the issue will become less), so yep, same thought here. M.]

Maybe a subsidy contribution to fund more rapid chargers, bit like Texas did* [worth a read due to the weirdness surrounding Tesla, they came in at a fraction of the cost, but got no subsidies as they missed a deadline. How stupid is that.]

I do think the rapid charger situation will work itself out, after all there's money and business involved, such as pee'ing off visitors to a services, if the network isn't good enough. Just an example.

* Not only do Tesla have Supercharger factories, but they are now deploying some already assembled, so to speak, with up to 4 SC's attached to a baseplate which can be trucked to the location for quicker install.

Tesla Superchargers Would Save Texas Money, But State Denied Tesla Grants

Companies were only allowed to apply for grant money to cover up to 70 percent of a charger's deployment up to $150,000. While most companies request the full $150,000 per charger, Tesla only applied for $30,000 per charger. However, it wasn't awarded a single penny of grant money.

Martyn1981

Petriix said:

No, the comment about Northampton was not suggesting diverting to Milton Keynes, I was merely pointing out that there were many chargers a short distance away on the same route. No diversion necessary, just stop slightly earlier or later in your journey.

But you also raised a good point about journey speed. Personally I find it far better to drive more direct routes on slower roads. Motorways are incredibly inefficient.

As for winter range: yes, we're all experiencing lower range; as we have always done. Those of us who drove shorter range EVs in the past are intimately aware of the compromises, trying to eek out the last few miles by turning the heating off and slowing to a crawl.

Luckily I do fewer long journeys in the winter. The first part of each journey is brutal as the cabin and battery warm up, then it plateaus at generally being a bit worse than normal. Headwinds or standing water are killers.

But it's all part of the bigger picture. In the summer I average around 220 miles per 100% (48.8kWh) full charge* whereas it's around 200 over the whole year. I tend to drive quite economically so it could easily be worse for someone with a heavy right foot. 

*I don't actually drain the battery from 100% to 0. On the occasional long journey I might arrive home on ~5% but without risk of 'running out'. I usually don't use more than 50% in a day - mostly it's 15-20%. I'll only bother charging from the grid when it dips below 50% back up to 80%. Otherwise I'll only charge to full once per month to keep the cells balanced or in advance of a long trip. 

Hi, made me chuckle. I did a short trip, about 40 miles, up into the S. Wales valleys yesterday, gains about 400m in altitude. Didn't warm ickle TiMmY up first, so a few miles in we hit about 500Wh/mile, but dropped to about 300Wh by 1/3rd of journey. The last 1/3rd gets steeper, and has lovely, quiet, sweeping dual carraigeways, where some(?) might enjoy speeds approaching triple digits, if it's dry, sunny and the 80's rock is blasting. Got there with 370Wh/mile.

Return journey, with ~400kgs of kitty litter on board, meant sticking to speed limits, so return downhill, with added weight was ~190Wh/mile. So a somewhat poor 280Wh/mile. But fun. Very cold temps (for Cardiff) for early/mid December, unusual to go under zero, and we've been getting -4C. Others will be worse of course, but very unseasonal.

At one point on the return, from stationary at a roundabout on a 70mph road, I managed to get to 20mph with a very small energy consumption bar, then to 30mph with no bar, then all the way to 70mph with a green regen bar showing. I'm such a big kid.

EricMears

Petriix said:

No, the comment about Northampton was not suggesting diverting to Milton Keynes, I was merely pointing out that there were many chargers a short distance away on the same route. No diversion necessary, just stop slightly earlier or later in your journey.

In any car (i.e. EV or ICEV) don't think I'd ever choose to stop at a MSE other than for a very brief 'comfort break' !  Fuel - whether liquid or electronic is always dearer than off-motorway and refreshment areas crowded and expensive.  It's usually possible to find a rapid charger within a couple of miles of a motorway junction and with far better availability than on a MSE.