EV Discussion thread

Grumpy_chap

Thanks @JKenH for considering my previous comment and taking the effort to combine the graphs.

With regard to

I think PHEv drivers fall into two categories: those who buy them to run them as EVs with the back up option of ICE to long trips and then there are those who just get them for tax reasons

Given that I proved only a little upthread that the range (actual achievable real driving range, not just some theory in a brochure) of an EV is around 350 miles, what actual purpose if there for carrying around a tank full of fuel and all the weight plus complexity of a ICE as well as the EV drive train?

Just returned from a weekend trip to Great Yarmouth and we made it there and back without charging.

…

344 miles in total

1961Nick

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82019280#Comment_82019280

For those that don't want to give up ICE, an advantage of a hybrid drivetrain is not subjecting the combustion engine to those short trips below the optimum operating temperature.

Grumpy_chap

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82019325#Comment_82019325

Well, is that really how the PHEV works?

I mean, if the car has a range of 30 EV miles and the journey is 32 miles, then the ICE is only operating cold.

Also, AIUI, many PHEV's operate on the EV only up to a certain level of power and if higher speed or more power (acceleration) is required, then the ICE cuts in to assist. Whenever that cut in occurs, the ICE is running cold. It might even be possible that the ICE operates cold more because of the short cut in periods.

My example journey if to visit MiL. Six miles total; 1 mile from house to dual carriage way, 3 miles at 70 mph, 1.5 miles at 40 mph - 30 mph dual carriageway, then final 0.5 mile on local road. Would the ICE ever start on that journey?

michaels

Here is a big study with real world efficiency for the average PHEV based on ECU data - scary reading given these cars have massive tax subsidies:

Plug-in hybrids use three times more fuel than manufacturers claim, analysis finds | Electric, hybrid and low-emission cars | The Guardian

1961Nick

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82019356#Comment_82019356

The ICE joins the party at 87mph on mine so it's doubtful I'll ever trouble it on the way to Tesco! Joking aside, it only really gets used when a journey is over 60 miles or if I decide to drive in hybrid or sport rather than EV mode. I like making a deliberate choice rather than asking a cold engine to give full beans for an overtake.

1961Nick

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82019442#Comment_82019442

Your post made me wonder what the wltp fuel consumption figure was for my car so I had a look… 382.4mpg. It's done 373mpg since I got it so I can't complain. However… we're doing the NC500 in September so the average is going to plummet because it's cheaper to run it on petrol than to public charge it.

Martyn1981

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82019442#Comment_82019442

Yeah the real world results, now that vehicles report their actual fuel usage back to the manufacturers, has been horrific.

Personally, I think PHEV's offered a great role, if driven correctly, as a gateway to BEV's. We can see that ET and Nick operate(d) this way. A friend of mine got a PHEV quite a few years ago, drove it mostly on electric, found the EV side easier than expected, and was disappointed that he hadn't gone full BEV. Now he and his wife drive BEV's. So the experience of one PHEV, helped lead to two ICEV's changing to BEV.

But as you reported, the real PHEV usage is terrible and if anything, getting worse year on year. The Transport & Environment research that came out last year made for very unhappy reading. The good news though, is that the utility factor (allowing for PHEV sales to contribute to a company's zero emission sales total) was reduced in 2025, and will be again in 2027, to better align the PHEV contribution, with real world data.

Plug-in hybrids pollute almost as much as petrol cars – EU data

PHEVs are supposed to save on emissions and fuel by switching between a battery, which is recharged by being plugged in, and a petrol or diesel engine. But in the real world, CO2 emissions from plug-in hybrids are almost five times what official tests suggest. The real-world data differs hugely from the official ‘WLTP’ tests where vehicles are driven in a way that regulators consider to be normal.

In the real world, plug-in hybrids emit 135g of CO2 per km on average, according to T&E analysis of data gathered by the European Environment Agency (EEA) from fuel monitors on 127,000 vehicles registered in 2023. Petrol and diesel cars emit 166g of CO2/km on average.

Long range PHEVs = more emissions

PHEV emissions are also increasing because of the trend towards longer electric ranges as bigger batteries make the vehicles heavier and, therefore, burn more fuel in engine mode. These heavier vehicles also consume more energy than smaller cars when driven on the battery. Plug-in hybrids with an electric range above 75 km actually emit more CO2 on average than those with a range between 45 and 75 km, the data shows.

JKenH

Unfortunately, the T&E comments do not make a distinction between privately owned and company owned vehicles.

This report from the ICCT confirms the overall findings that PHEVs’ performance in the real world is considerably worse than WLTP figures but importantly make the distinction between between company and private cars.

The real-world fuel consumption of PHEVs in Europe is on average three to

five times higher than WLTP type-approval values. The average real-world fuel

consumption of PHEVs in Europe is 4.0–4.4 L/100 km for private vehicles and

7.6–8.4 L/100 km for company cars compared to an average of 1.6–1.7 L/100 km in

WLTP type approval (Figure ES 1). These values correspond to tailpipe emissions

of 90–105 g CO2/km for private vehicles and 175–195 g CO2/km for company cars

compared to only 37–39 g CO2/km in WLTP type approval.

The average real-world electric driving share is about 45%–49% for private cars and

about 11%–15% for company cars. The electric driving share corresponds to the share

of distance driven on the electric motor with the combustion engine off. In contrast,

the official WLTP type-approval procedure assumes the share of driving in the mostly,

but not fully, electric charge-depleting mode at around 70%–85% (Figure ES3). The low

electric driving share is one of the main reasons for the high deviation between type

approval and real-world fuel consumption.

https://www.theicct.org.cn/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/real-world-phev-use-jun22-1.pdf 

The problem is not that PHEVS inherently are almost as dirty as ICE cars, it is the way they are used and this, unfortunately, is down to the perverse taxation policies adopted throughout Europe which encouraged people to choose PHEVs and then drive them like ICE cars.

T&E also try to undermine the case for long range PHEVs by claiming they are even worse than low range PHEVs:

PHEV emissions are also increasing because of the trend towards longer electric ranges as bigger batteries make the vehicles heavier and, therefore, burn more fuel in engine mode. These heavier vehicles also consume more energy than smaller cars when driven on the battery. Plug-in hybrids with an electric range above 75 km actually emit more CO2 on average than those with a range between 45 and 75 km, the data shows.

Mercedes-Benz has the biggest gap between its official and real-world PHEV emissions, according to the 2023 data, emitting 494% more, on average. Its GLE-Class has the highest real-world emissions gap of cars sold that year, exceeding its official value by 611%. The other major European carmakers emitted around 300% more than their official CO2 ratings.

But again, this is not the fault of the cars: it is how they are used. Mercedes for a while (probably when the survey was undertaken) had the PHEVs with the longest ranges and I would speculate that most Mercedes cars would tend to be company cars and also, perhaps, driven by higher rate tax payers whose first priority was not saving the planet but going about their business as they had done before, driving on petrol. (Bizarrely some drivers would have their fuel reimbursed but not their domestic electricity bills). It does not surprise me in the least that longer range Mercedes PHEVs would have the worst emissions.

Let’s not forget that, however they dress it up, T&E are a (very professional) campaign group with an agenda to see all transport electrified. Suggesting that longer range PHEVs have higher average emissions “because they are heavier and burn more fuel” is disingenuous, when they should know from the ICCT report that the fundamental factor affecting PHEV emissions is whether they are company or private cars. Common sense would tell us that if someone is going to pay out themselves for a longer range PHEV they will seek to maximise the benefits of driving on electric, just as Nick does, and a longer range will enable them to drive further without using fossil fuels.

Taxation policies are the issue, not PHEVs themselves.

michaels

MY understanding is the JLR find it much cheaper to add a large battery to their models than to sell EVs or purchase credits, especially as the extra cost is more than offset by the tax savings for anyone buying through a business. Would be interesting to see whether JLR salespeople specifically suggest this to anyone coming into the showroom?!

Exiled_Tyke

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82019650#Comment_82019650

PHEV was the experience I needed to go full EV too and I wouldn't consider going back now.