EV Discussion thread

ispookie666

Waiting for the next step change in battery tech. 
Battery Deg would depend on how fast they are charged. 
Even used EV batteries have good resale values and niche market has sprung up for them 

shinytop

gefnew said:

The standing charge increase is a back door tax on every user to cover the going bust fiasco. the cot of bulb will next to hit the consumer with there billions to be clawed back.

I'm not sure this has anything to do with EVs.  Maybe best raised on the Energy forum

Grumpy_chap

I wrote recently on another thread about my visit to see the Toyota BZ4X:

Grumpy_chap said:

Had a look at the Toyota EV and there is a lot going for it. 

High safety equipment specification, long warranty, long range (especially at the price point), nice interior (though the Dealer only had the top "Premium 1st Edition" model on show) and perfectly adequate styling (with design cues possibly taken from the Lexus RX).

It is an absolutely enormous car - at least as large as the RAV4, possibly bigger.  The sheer size of it would be too big for me really.

For me, it would probably make most sense at the entry level trim, but that is hard to be certain on as Toyota do not seem to have published a data sheet allowing the equipment specifications for each trim level to be compared.  The Dealer also did not have this information.

I wonder whether there is some haste in the Toyota launch?  The Dealer I spoke with said they'd only received the car into the showroom and training on Tuesday this week.  That training was possibly not complete as I asked about range and how it would vary in a cold, wet, icy, dark, winter morning only for him to say "it is 317 miles, it does not vary on conditions or driving style - that's what we were told, I wouldn't say it unless I had been told that because I would not lie to you, if that is not true then it means I have been lied to also."

I asked again about the difference in equipment between the trim levels and the Dealer confirmed he could not provide that, but really why wouldn't I just go ahead for the top-of-the-range type he had in the showroom, which is lovely and all he has sold so far since the car arrived on Tuesday.  They are very popular apparently, the Dealer sold three already today (before I went in at 2 o'clock and they only open at 11, so that's one per hour) and has now sold all allocation until at least April 2023.  That is such a long period that I assume the statement must be true as, IMO, it would only serve to encourage you to buy something else from a different brand - possibly the Dealer says that long lead time thinking it stimulates demand.

The push was to buy via PCH (which is not buying at all) - that was an expensive option at over £600 per month and the PCP is even more per month apparently.  I did not understand why that was so high as a typical £40k car (Audi A5) would be around £440 monthly on PCP.

I certainly liked the car more than some other EV's I've seen with far higher price tag and more than other SUV-EV's at similar price tag.  The lack of data on the specification is simply unforgiveable and Toyota should have that to provide.  Nonsense about range not varying with conditions is annoying, it really is a monster of a car and the lead time is phenomenal.

Having said all that, if I was to go out and buy a new car now, this would certainly make it to my shortlist.

Anyway, this week, my younger brother has placed an order for one. 
His local Toyota dealer did not even have a model available to view at the dealership, so I have suggested he makes a trip to our local dealer (especially as he is visiting Mum this weekend so is near).  The commitment on lead-time that my brother was given was "anytime within 2023" (which is frankly absurd).

When I looked, I was doing so from the context of a private purchase, so an outlay of £40k - £50k, or the quite high PCH that Toyota are offering.  I still can't get my head round why the Toyota PCH is so expensive compared to comparable PCP for similarly priced cars elsewhere.

The Toyota was competitively priced against other similar EV's but still a substantial outlay for a private purchase and a significant premium over a comparable ICE.

My brother is able to get his via a work salary sacrifice scheme, so that makes it really much more attractive as a proposition.  I always thought that the SS schemes for EV really required the car to be on a lease, but the scheme my brother has seems to be more PCP-like in so far as there is a balloon payment option to buy at the end of the term.  Quite how that works via SS, I don't really know as the balloon payment at the end of term will be more than you can SS in the one month that it falls due.

I am not quite sure which model my brother is getting - he doesn't even know himself yet as he has not seen the car or spec sheets, but simply that the car was added to the SS list so he paid the deposit to reserve a queue-slot and he's got a bit of time to choose exactly what he'll get.  I guess the cost range via SS is £30k - £35k compared to the private purchase range £49k - £50k.  If that is correct, it's a no-brainer and the cost is comparable to an equivalent ICE.

With my older brother having taken an i3 earlier in the year, I am now the dinosaur in the family

JKenH

Tesla “Carflation:” UK study finds prices have risen up to 32% in just 3 years

A word of caution about the table below. The prices are for entry models. The 2022 Zoe has got a bigger battery and the Kona a smaller one. 

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-carflation-prices-rose-32-percent-three-years-study/

ispookie666

Looks like EV's are a good hedge against inflation. 

1961Nick

Grumpy_chap said:

I wrote recently on another thread about my visit to see the Toyota BZ4X:

Grumpy_chap said:

Had a look at the Toyota EV and there is a lot going for it. 

High safety equipment specification, long warranty, long range (especially at the price point), nice interior (though the Dealer only had the top "Premium 1st Edition" model on show) and perfectly adequate styling (with design cues possibly taken from the Lexus RX).

It is an absolutely enormous car - at least as large as the RAV4, possibly bigger.  The sheer size of it would be too big for me really.

For me, it would probably make most sense at the entry level trim, but that is hard to be certain on as Toyota do not seem to have published a data sheet allowing the equipment specifications for each trim level to be compared.  The Dealer also did not have this information.

I wonder whether there is some haste in the Toyota launch?  The Dealer I spoke with said they'd only received the car into the showroom and training on Tuesday this week.  That training was possibly not complete as I asked about range and how it would vary in a cold, wet, icy, dark, winter morning only for him to say "it is 317 miles, it does not vary on conditions or driving style - that's what we were told, I wouldn't say it unless I had been told that because I would not lie to you, if that is not true then it means I have been lied to also."

I asked again about the difference in equipment between the trim levels and the Dealer confirmed he could not provide that, but really why wouldn't I just go ahead for the top-of-the-range type he had in the showroom, which is lovely and all he has sold so far since the car arrived on Tuesday.  They are very popular apparently, the Dealer sold three already today (before I went in at 2 o'clock and they only open at 11, so that's one per hour) and has now sold all allocation until at least April 2023.  That is such a long period that I assume the statement must be true as, IMO, it would only serve to encourage you to buy something else from a different brand - possibly the Dealer says that long lead time thinking it stimulates demand.

The push was to buy via PCH (which is not buying at all) - that was an expensive option at over £600 per month and the PCP is even more per month apparently.  I did not understand why that was so high as a typical £40k car (Audi A5) would be around £440 monthly on PCP.

I certainly liked the car more than some other EV's I've seen with far higher price tag and more than other SUV-EV's at similar price tag.  The lack of data on the specification is simply unforgiveable and Toyota should have that to provide.  Nonsense about range not varying with conditions is annoying, it really is a monster of a car and the lead time is phenomenal.

Having said all that, if I was to go out and buy a new car now, this would certainly make it to my shortlist.

Anyway, this week, my younger brother has placed an order for one. 
His local Toyota dealer did not even have a model available to view at the dealership, so I have suggested he makes a trip to our local dealer (especially as he is visiting Mum this weekend so is near).  The commitment on lead-time that my brother was given was "anytime within 2023" (which is frankly absurd).

When I looked, I was doing so from the context of a private purchase, so an outlay of £40k - £50k, or the quite high PCH that Toyota are offering.  I still can't get my head round why the Toyota PCH is so expensive compared to comparable PCP for similarly priced cars elsewhere.

The Toyota was competitively priced against other similar EV's but still a substantial outlay for a private purchase and a significant premium over a comparable ICE.

My brother is able to get his via a work salary sacrifice scheme, so that makes it really much more attractive as a proposition.  I always thought that the SS schemes for EV really required the car to be on a lease, but the scheme my brother has seems to be more PCP-like in so far as there is a balloon payment option to buy at the end of the term.  Quite how that works via SS, I don't really know as the balloon payment at the end of term will be more than you can SS in the one month that it falls due.

I am not quite sure which model my brother is getting - he doesn't even know himself yet as he has not seen the car or spec sheets, but simply that the car was added to the SS list so he paid the deposit to reserve a queue-slot and he's got a bit of time to choose exactly what he'll get.  I guess the cost range via SS is £30k - £35k compared to the private purchase range £49k - £50k.  If that is correct, it's a no-brainer and the cost is comparable to an equivalent ICE.

With my older brother having taken an i3 earlier in the year, I am now the dinosaur in the family

The problem with ordering an EV with such a long lead time is that there's a high probability that something else will come along in the meantime that's better.

Toyota maybe setting the PCP quote to take account of rising interest rates?

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Tesla “Carflation:” UK study finds prices have risen up to 32% in just 3 years

A word of caution about the table below. The prices are for entry models. The 2022 Zoe has got a bigger battery and the Kona a smaller one. 

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-carflation-prices-rose-32-percent-three-years-study/

The entry level Model 3 has just risen in price to £48490 but does have 25% more range than a 2019 version. It also has 100% usable battery rather than the previous version's recommended 90%.

I guess you could argue that most BEVs are too cheap because demand continues to outstrip supply in many cases?

Grumpy_chap

1961Nick said:

I guess you could argue that most BEVs are too cheap because demand continues to outstrip supply in many cases?

Isn't that currently the case for all cars?

1961Nick

Grumpy_chap said:

1961Nick said:

I guess you could argue that most BEVs are too cheap because demand continues to outstrip supply in many cases?

Isn't that currently the case for all cars?

You can still get immediate delivery on a number of ICE cars if you're not fussy about an exact spec but it's virtually impossible on a BEV.

Grumpy_chap

It would be interesting to see how those "carflation" figures are for ICE vehicles as well.  It would have to compare true order values, not list price movements, which I think those are in the article linked (teslarati). For many cars, there have been massive discounts as a rule and those discounts are now zilch.

The other factor that has impacted the list prices of EV's is the reduction in EV grants.  If I recall correctly, Tesla immediately increased the list price as soon as the grant was withdrawn.  Some other manufacturers were not so immediate and / or had the grant still in place in part until very recently.  How do those figures change if this impact is stripped out?

Then there is the impact of stripping out exchange rate fluctuations.

JKenH said:

Tesla “Carflation:” UK study finds prices have risen up to 32% in just 3 years

I have also been thinking during the day about the SS that my younger brother is using to get his Toyota "random characters" EV - they must have been able to think of a better name.

I said above it mean the £50k car would only cost the equivalent of £35k, but that is one rather giant tax incentive so I wonder whether I am correct.

I did previously understand that the SS schemes had to be lease vehicles, yet my brother says the scheme he has is PCP with a balloon payment for purchase at the end of the 4 years.  That might still be a lease, but with a "fudge" that allows the balloon payment to be added in somehow, but that really makes it effectively a PCP as far as I can tell.

So, if I bought that £50k EV Toyota, I'd pay £50k.

If a basic rate tax payer buys that £50k EV Toyota through SS, they save NI and income tax on that amount, which is 30% broadly speaking.  £50k x 0.3 = £15k leaving the effective cost £35k.  Which is the answer I first had.  It would be an even cheaper effective purchase rate for higher earners.  Maybe I have totally misunderstood how this works.

If I have understood the way SS works even near to correctly, effectively saving 30% (or more) on the price of an EV is absolutely huge and also eliminates the price premium between EV and ICE.  It is just that a tax-incentive that is only available to a rather limited proportion of the population seems unfair and illogical:

• Participation is at the whim of whether the employer can be bothered to administer the process
• Not available to pensioners
• Not available to those without employment but "unearned" income, say BTL landlord as one example 

What proportion of the population are actually able to take advantage of SS for an EV?
Can anyone explain the SS process and the effective saving that it means?