EV Discussion thread

QrizB

Grumpy_chap said:

I did previously understand that the SS schemes had to be lease vehicles, yet my brother says the scheme he has is PCP with a balloon payment for purchase at the end of the 4 years.  That might still be a lease, but with a "fudge" that allows the balloon payment to be added in somehow, but that really makes it effectively a PCP as far as I can tell.

I've not taken up the salsac car scheme that my employer offers but I think that, at the end of the lease, you do have the option to buy it from the leasing company.

The leasing company don't care who gets it next, after all, so long as they get their end-of-lease payment.

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

The other factor that has impacted the list prices of EV's is the reduction in EV grants.  If I recall correctly, Tesla immediately increased the list price as soon as the grant was withdrawn.  Some other manufacturers were not so immediate and / or had the grant still in place in part until very recently.  How do those figures change if this impact is stripped out?

Hiya, UK Tesla's haven't been eligible for the PiG for a year or so, as the UK lowered the max price for eligibility, £35k I think?

Or do you mean a price rise when their competition got more expensive (so to speak) with the end of the PiG?

In reality, Tesla has been trying for a couple of years to demand manage (or manage demand) with prices, but like most things lately, it's all crazy.  I think they were aiming to keep waiting lists under a year (but failed), which is why price changes look very hit and miss, as they monitor demand for specific models and trims. The UK didn't see the big increases till recently, but US prices have been rising fast for over a year reflecting demand and waiting lists.

Long waiting lists could be a real problem for manufacturers who honour prices when ordered, when (if?) prices start to fall. I doubt anyone taking ownership today of a BEV, and paying less than the current order price is upset. But what happens when the World goes back to normal, and supply issues ease, and prices fall - will anyone be happy handing over their monies, if the then new order price is lower? Obviously irrelevant if customers pay the current price for cars ordered in the past, but I have no idea what policies most manufacturers are using.

Crazee world at the moment, may be quite a few years before BEV prices and demand settle, since demand may be rising faster than supply chains can grow and adapt.

Grumpy_chap

1961Nick said:

The latest batch of company car lease deals include an option for the driver (not the company) to purchase the vehicle at the end of the lease. In practice it's the same as a PCP with a balloon, but legally it's a lease because the lease company owns the vehicle throughout.

Thanks - that must be how my brother's SS scheme works - a lease but with the option for him to buy on a balloon payment at the end.  The difference being that the balloon figure is set at the outset rather than normally a lease company would only set that sale value a the end of the term.

Is the final payment still considered SS, or does that lose the tax advantages?

Martyn1981 said:

Hiya, UK Tesla's haven't been eligible for the PiG for a year or so, as the UK lowered the max price for eligibility, £35k I think?

Yes, but the "carflation" article that was linked and the table shared covered 2019 - 2022.  So, I understand, that means the period includes the period when Tesla were first excluded from the grant and, if I recall correctly, Tesla prices were uplifted almost immediately by the amount of the grant.

The period in the table also no means that all capital grants have been reduced and then withdrawn.  The true "carflation" would have to consider that impact to see how the manufacturer prices have adjusted.  Obviously, for the consumer it makes no difference as you still have to pay more.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

The other factor that has impacted the list prices of EV's is the reduction in EV grants.  If I recall correctly, Tesla immediately increased the list price as soon as the grant was withdrawn.  Some other manufacturers were not so immediate and / or had the grant still in place in part until very recently.  How do those figures change if this impact is stripped out?

Hiya, UK Tesla's haven't been eligible for the PiG for a year or so, as the UK lowered the max price for eligibility, £35k I think?

Or do you mean a price rise when their competition got more expensive (so to speak) with the end of the PiG?

In reality, Tesla has been trying for a couple of years to demand manage (or manage demand) with prices, but like most things lately, it's all crazy.  I think they were aiming to keep waiting lists under a year (but failed), which is why price changes look very hit and miss, as they monitor demand for specific models and trims. The UK didn't see the big increases till recently, but US prices have been rising fast for over a year reflecting demand and waiting lists.

Long waiting lists could be a real problem for manufacturers who honour prices when ordered, when (if?) prices start to fall. I doubt anyone taking ownership today of a BEV, and paying less than the current order price is upset. But what happens when the World goes back to normal, and supply issues ease, and prices fall - will anyone be happy handing over their monies, if the then new order price is lower? Obviously irrelevant if customers pay the current price for cars ordered in the past, but I have no idea what policies most manufacturers are using.

Traditionally most manufacturers  (like Nissan with the Leaf) had artificially high list prices and sold through dealers at a huge discount. With that model you don’t need to keep adjusting the list price just the level of discount. The customer’s contract is with the dealer.

1961Nick

Grumpy_chap said:

1961Nick said:

The latest batch of company car lease deals include an option for the driver (not the company) to purchase the vehicle at the end of the lease. In practice it's the same as a PCP with a balloon, but legally it's a lease because the lease company owns the vehicle throughout.

Thanks - that must be how my brother's SS scheme works - a lease but with the option for him to buy on a balloon payment at the end.  The difference being that the balloon figure is set at the outset rather than normally a lease company would only set that sale value a the end of the term.

Is the final payment still considered SS, or does that lose the tax advantages?

Martyn1981 said:

Hiya, UK Tesla's haven't been eligible for the PiG for a year or so, as the UK lowered the max price for eligibility, £35k I think?

Yes, but the "carflation" article that was linked and the table shared covered 2019 - 2022.  So, I understand, that means the period includes the period when Tesla were first excluded from the grant and, if I recall correctly, Tesla prices were uplifted almost immediately by the amount of the grant.

The period in the table also no means that all capital grants have been reduced and then withdrawn.  The true "carflation" would have to consider that impact to see how the manufacturer prices have adjusted.  Obviously, for the consumer it makes no difference as you still have to pay more.

A salary sacrifice the size of a balloon payment would wipe out several pay checks so it’s very unlikely HMRC would condone it. It would no doubt lose the advantages of a company BEV BIK & be taxed at your marginal rate just like any other BIK.

The ‘balloon’ would therefore have to be paid personally out of taxed income. I’m sure there will be plenty of scheming to increase monthly payments & reduce the agreed sale price at the end of the contract, but there will be a limit to how far you can go before HMRC take an interest.

Grumpy_chap

1961Nick said:

We might get one when Tesla get round to making the Model 2 or whatever it'll be called. 

I wonder whether the "2" would actually end up being the "Too"?

I can imaging Elon would see a bit more humour in a model line up

Too S3XY

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

1961Nick said:

We might get one when Tesla get round to making the Model 2 or whatever it'll be called. 

I wonder whether the "2" would actually end up being the "Too"?

I can imaging Elon would see a bit more humour in a model line up

Too S3XY

🤣           

JKenH

China clean energy: electric cars still need coal

https://www.ft.com/content/0a9f5895-434a-4387-a59e-5bf1c95175b6

JKenH

Toyota Has More Bad News for Vehicle Owners 

A bit more news on the Toyota wheels falling off story.

The vehicles have certain nuts on the rear axle assembly that can loosen over time, and, in some cases, fall off, potential causing an axle shaft sub-assembly to separate from the axle. If the sub-assembly completely separates from the axle, it can affect the vehicle's stability and brake performance, increasing the risk of crash. Toyota dealers will inspect and retighten the axle flange nuts and in some cases axle-related components may be replaced based on inspection results, a statement said.

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/toyota-has-more-bad-news-for-vehicle-owners

JKenH

Costa defends hybrid cars until 2040

The Prime Minister has explained that Portugal defends an extension of the deadline for the ban on the sale of new vehicles with 100% combustion engines to ensure “the support” of citizens, without affecting the targets of the European climate package.

https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/2022-06-26/costa-defends-hybrid-cars-until-2040/68208