EV Discussion thread

debitcardmayhem

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81897320#Comment_81897320

Thanks , didn't know agile exp worked wirh GO.

MeteredOut

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81897241#Comment_81897241

You should write headlines for the Daily Mail… ;)

By your logic, buying a non-V2G EV saves 4p a mile?

JKenH

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81897831#Comment_81897831

If I had written “charging your car from your own solar panels costs you more than charging from the grid” would you dispute that? 

What I am saying there is the same as I am saying with my “Daily Mail” style headline - running your car from energy you could have exported costs you more (12p/kWh) than charging from the grid as you do now on IOG (7p/kWh).

It may be difficult to get your head round and it may not be what you want to hear but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

QrizB

running your car from energy you could have exported costs you more (12p/kWh) than charging from the grid as you do now on IOG (7p/kWh).

Agreed.

It was different while I was on deemed export, but now I'm on metered export it makes sense to charge our EV exclusively on off-peak IOG and to export as much solar as we can on Outgoing.

We don't have the option of V2G with our current cat or wallbox so that particular dilemma is one for the future!

michaels

Oops - we are on import 6.7p, export 16p and don't bother to round trip (apparently Eon take a pretty dim view of grey exports). I did turn off the PV diverter to stop excess PV heating the hot water but unfortunately our V2H does not have an 'import match' functionality, only load match so excess PV charges the battery if the car is connected rather than exporting. I thought on Octopus it was not permitted to have IOG and agile export?

Edit: Seems like they changed the rules fairly recently to allow this. Does anyone know if they net off SEG against demand so that you can avoid generating taxable income?

JKenH

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81898239#Comment_81898239

I don’t know about Eon but Octopus bill for import plus VAT and export net of VAT. They don’t deduct export from import before billing but they don’t see self consumed solar, so effectively it is only generation exported you are credited for. Presumably it is only the amount of export revenue that is subject to tax but total generation relative to total consumption may be the trigger for the 120% rule.

As I see it if you generate 8 MWh, export 5MWh, import 6 MWh your total consumption would be 9MWh. So I think the relevant figures for the 120% rule would be 8/9 so no tax in that case. If you generate 8MWh, export 6 MWh and import 4 MWh, your gross consumption would be 6MWh, in which case as generation is 8/6 or 133% of gross consumption your export income would potentially be taxable although if you gave no other side hustles the first £1k of income might be tax free.

Please note that is only my interpretation, not tax advice, as with the additional panels I had installed in December I have had to think about this.

I would be interested in other opinions or interpretations.

NedS

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81898492#Comment_81898492

This is exactly my interpretation too.

The exemption that applies to 120% microgeneration may be a little flexible, as the actual HMRC wording includes terms like generally and intended with respect to generating significantly more than you consume, so there may be some additional wiggle room rather than a hard 120% limit, tax year by tax year.

For example, you normally generate 9MWh and consume 8MWh, but last tax year it was particularly sunny and you generated 10MWh taking you to 125% of consumption, or maybe you upgraded your house insulation and/or heating system and now use less electricity to heat the house - you never intended to generate more than you consume, just devices have become more efficient over time and now you consume less.

Further, consider my own case as an example where I have documented evidence including an MCS certificate that my ASHP installation was planned around 6MWh of annual consumption, whereas my actual annual consumption is closer to 2.5MWh. Could I reasonably argue I never intended to exceed my consumption if I used these figures when deciding to install a larger 6MWh solar array versus a 2.5MWh solar array? The heat pump industry is notorious for over estimating heat loss and thus the amount of consumption required to heat the home.

Then, as you state, if the 120% microgeneration exemption does not apply, any revenue paid for export becomes taxable, with the standard small trading allowance of £1000 being relevant.

To my reading, the exemption is clearly intended to cover the vast majority of domestic solar installations. HMRC never intended to create a tax liability for people installing solar on their homes for their own domestic use.

JKenH

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81899098#Comment_81899098

IIRC you switch to IOF in summer (apologies if I got that wrong) and I was thinking of doing the same but a little worried about potential tax implications. IOF seems like trading energy, particularly if Octopus charge the battery to export between 4 and 7pm. Last year I exported 3993kWh and imported 4257kWh. I added a further 5KW of panels in December so could see my export reaching 8kw. If most of that was on IOF in the summer months I could potentially earn approaching £2,000 from export. With those sort of figures I could see HMRC getting interested.

All my pension income is taxed at source but I am into hifi and continually upgrading and what I earn selling a few items (usually at a modest loss) is enough to require eBay to notify HMRC. This isn’t trading but I might have difficulty convincing HMRC it isn’t. For instance I bought and sold several streamers and DACs last year purely to try them out. I also bought and sold 2 amplifiers and and 2 sets of speakers which after deciding they weren’t for me moved them on. HMRC guidance tends to be a bit vague on what constitutes trading. Fighting HMRC on two fronts is not something I am particularly keen to do.

MeteredOut

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81897899#Comment_81897899

It would be more correct to say that, but it still doesn't cost you more. I don't see opportunity cost as a real cost, per se, but perhaps that's just semantics.

But, I suspect its not really that difficult for most folk to understand what you were saying. In reality, it was so obvious, I had to read it a few times in case you were actually posting something new. It turns out that wasn't the case. It's like saying buying Heinz Beans from Sainsbury's might cost you more than buying the same tin from Asda. Well, duh.

Quite looking forward to V2G (or similar) in future though - its a shame using the car a a home battery is taking so long to become readily available to consumers.

NedS

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81899349#Comment_81899349

Yes, if the microgeneration exemption did not apply, then indeed IOF will generate more income and potentially more tax liability. However, regardless of tariff and export rates, the underlying consumption and generation figures remain the same and it is these which are relevant for the microgeneration exemption, and battery storage is largely irrelevant as it neither generates nor consumes electricity (I know there is a small amount of consumption, but lets ignore that for simplicity of argument). Again, it is my view that the vast majority of solar households should be covered by the micro-generation exemption, and that is the intention of the HMRC guidance.

I'm sure there will be larger properties generating many thousands in export payments annually that will be covered by the exemption as they probably also have swimming pools, hot tubs, multiple EVs etc so have equally large consumption. If your generation significantly exceeds your consumption now, maybe you intend to purchase an EV in the near future?

I feel it is more clear cut if you do not have solar, battery only, as clearly the microgeneration exemption cannot apply as by definition you are not a micro-generator, so any payments for battery export are potentially taxable. At that point, I think one may have reasonable arguments about offsetting importing costs as relevant expenses, and amortisation of capital costs become relevant if HMRC see it as a 'business' activity (although I am not a tax lawyer).