EV Discussion thread

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

michaels said:

Why is the govt subsidising company car buyers by 10k and private car buyers by £0?!

Nothing from these representatives about their being wedded to continuing ICE for as long as possible.  

Good point. I did type a long post about this, but decided to spell check it before submitting, and the bleeding power cut out here. Oh well, got to play with a small powerstation I just bought.

So ..... I think a good message was sent by Nissan in 2011 with the Leaf. It may not have been great, nor profitable, but should have opened eyes. Then the Tesla S launched in 2012 and was cost competitive with the high priced car segment. And more importantly it was profitable, as Tesla went positive for one quarter, before the expenditure of the X rollout/ramp.

If we want to be generous, then the Tesla 3 was ramping fast through 2018, and Tesla was profitable in 2019. But legacy still dragged its heels. That's 5+ yrs ago.

Now we have VWG saying 'the roof is on fire', and suggesting 20k job cuts, plus closure of German factories. They've suggested a 10% pay cut, but the unions want no job cuts and 7% pay rise. And herbert Diess was forced out a few years ago, when he wanted to accelerate the shift to BEV's, but suggested that 20k jobs may be lost. [Plus he was personally blamed for the EV software problems.]

Nissan are cutting 1,000's of jobs, and talking about a crisis.

Toyota say that the incoming Californian fleet emissions standards are 'impossible' to meet. And has tried to delay the shift with over a decade of FUD and false HFCV promises.

GM and Ford are in trouble, and whilst I think unions are a good thing, the recent massive pay rise the UAW negotiated/forced upon them, seems to be close to making US car production unprofitable for them. But Trump is threatening tariffs on the imports from Mexico (and Canada) (where much of their production already is).


The transition was always going to be painful, but stalling, whilst China and Tesla earns profits, was never going to end well. Looks like it's now getting serious, and blocking the Chinese is the only way to buy legacy more time. Hope they spend it wisely.

Magnitio

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

michaels said:

Why is the govt subsidising company car buyers by 10k and private car buyers by £0?!

Nothing from these representatives about their being wedded to continuing ICE for as long as possible.  

Good point. I did type a long post about this, but decided to spell check it before submitting, and the bleeding power cut out here. Oh well, got to play with a small powerstation I just bought.

So ..... I think a good message was sent by Nissan in 2011 with the Leaf. It may not have been great, nor profitable, but should have opened eyes. Then the Tesla S launched in 2012 and was cost competitive with the high priced car segment. And more importantly it was profitable, as Tesla went positive for one quarter, before the expenditure of the X rollout/ramp.

If we want to be generous, then the Tesla 3 was ramping fast through 2018, and Tesla was profitable in 2019. But legacy still dragged its heels. That's 5+ yrs ago.

Now we have VWG saying 'the roof is on fire', and suggesting 20k job cuts, plus closure of German factories. They've suggested a 10% pay cut, but the unions want no job cuts and 7% pay rise. And herbert Diess was forced out a few years ago, when he wanted to accelerate the shift to BEV's, but suggested that 20k jobs may be lost. [Plus he was personally blamed for the EV software problems.]

Nissan are cutting 1,000's of jobs, and talking about a crisis.

Toyota say that the incoming Californian fleet emissions standards are 'impossible' to meet. And has tried to delay the shift with over a decade of FUD and false HFCV promises.

GM and Ford are in trouble, and whilst I think unions are a good thing, the recent massive pay rise the UAW negotiated/forced upon them, seems to be close to making US car production unprofitable for them. But Trump is threatening tariffs on the imports from Mexico (and Canada) (where much of their production already is).


The transition was always going to be painful, but stalling, whilst China and Tesla earns profits, was never going to end well. Looks like it's now getting serious, and blocking the Chinese is the only way to buy legacy more time. Hope they spend it wisely.

It may be a challenge for the motor industry, as it is for the heating and energy companies when it comes to decarbonisation. However, desperate action is required and change needs to happen. I don't believe relaxing rules for these manufacturers is the answer; additional incentives and support for those making the transition to lower carbon transport is what's required. For example, those who can't charge at home shouldn't have to pay considerably more for charging their cars than someone with a driveway.

michaels

For a lot of 'traditional' manufacturers China was a big revenue centre where they are now pretty much wiped out.

The BBC HaveYourSay comments of the last two days are scary, the level of FUD that is hugely upvoted - just wow!

BBC need to have experts who say - perhaps EV is not100% as good for everyone as ICE car - better for some, worse for others, but it is the only option to save the planet so stop moaning and live with it.

The government also seem ambivalent, the intro of road tax sends completely the wrong message - as does denying the same discount for private buyers as company car buyers get.

Grumpy_chap

michaels said:

The government also seem ambivalent, 

So, I am not sure about this.  I read an article on the BBC News site yesterday but cannot locate it again to check or link.

IIRC, the article was saying that the ban on petrol / diesel cars will remain in place to come into effect from 2030 but there will be a five-year period when full hybrid (Prius-style) can be sold and then from 2035 it will be EV only.

That seemed odd to me, as one assumes no manufacturer will develop a full-hybrid power train if that is to have a life span of only 5 years (or 10 years if launched to market immediately).  It seems to suggest that there might be a short period where all cars are either EV or Toyota (possibly some being Toyota drive-train licenced to other legacy-auto).

As I say, I can't locate the article to link and may have mis-read.

shinytop

Grumpy_chap said:

michaels said:

The government also seem ambivalent, 

So, I am not sure about this.  I read an article on the BBC News site yesterday but cannot locate it again to check or link.

IIRC, the article was saying that the ban on petrol / diesel cars will remain in place to come into effect from 2030 but there will be a five-year period when full hybrid (Prius-style) can be sold and then from 2035 it will be EV only.

That seemed odd to me, as one assumes no manufacturer will develop a full-hybrid power train if that is to have a life span of only 5 years (or 10 years if launched to market immediately).  It seems to suggest that there might be a short period where all cars are either EV or Toyota (possibly some being Toyota drive-train licenced to other legacy-auto).

As I say, I can't locate the article to link and may have mis-read.

Is it here?

https://evfleetworld.co.uk/hybrids-likely-to-stay-on-sale-after-2030-dft-confirms/

Grumpy_chap

shinytop said:

Grumpy_chap said:

michaels said:

The government also seem ambivalent, 

So, I am not sure about this.  I read an article on the BBC News site yesterday but cannot locate it again to check or link.

IIRC, the article was saying that the ban on petrol / diesel cars will remain in place to come into effect from 2030 but there will be a five-year period when full hybrid (Prius-style) can be sold and then from 2035 it will be EV only.

That seemed odd to me, as one assumes no manufacturer will develop a full-hybrid power train if that is to have a life span of only 5 years (or 10 years if launched to market immediately).  It seems to suggest that there might be a short period where all cars are either EV or Toyota (possibly some being Toyota drive-train licenced to other legacy-auto).

As I say, I can't locate the article to link and may have mis-read.

Is it here?

https://evfleetworld.co.uk/hybrids-likely-to-stay-on-sale-after-2030-dft-confirms/

Thank you - that seems to report the same press-release, if not the same article.

Still seems unlikely that any manufacturer without a PHEV / full hybrid would develop one if the life expectancy of that investment cost is only until 2035.

Which might be a good thing as, if there is no point in updating ICE models as they have 5 years sales ahead of them and missed the boat for PHEV / full hybrid, legacy auto manufacturer's might just as well get on board and develop a decent EV product range.

shinytop

EVs are cheaper than ICE

Not a headline but based on my own search for a 2-3 year old, low mileage small hatch/\SUV.  About a grand less I'd say.  But even though I have off road parking/garage, do a lot of city driving and 95% of my trips are less than 200 miles I won't be getting one. Why? Because none of the ones I would buy can tow.  A bit short sighted of the manufacturers but I suppose it's not worth the effort for them.

silvercar

shinytop said:

EVs are cheaper than ICE

Not a headline but based on my own search for a 2-3 year old, low mileage small hatch/\SUV.  About a grand less I'd say.  But even though I have off road parking/garage, do a lot of city driving and 95% of my trips are less than 200 miles I won't be getting one. Why? Because none of the ones I would buy can tow.  A bit short sighted of the manufacturers but I suppose it's not worth the effort for them.

It’s been discussed on Tesla forums. The downside to towing is the extra power used and the difficulty of charging while towing. There are a couple of charging stations that have room for charging with a tow, but they are few and far between.

michaels

shinytop said:

EVs are cheaper than ICE

Not a headline but based on my own search for a 2-3 year old, low mileage small hatch/\SUV.  About a grand less I'd say.  But even though I have off road parking/garage, do a lot of city driving and 95% of my trips are less than 200 miles I won't be getting one. Why? Because none of the ones I would buy can tow.  A bit short sighted of the manufacturers but I suppose it's not worth the effort for them.

Would the £1k saving in price plus the fuel savings if you are charging at home pay for hire of a van or towing vehicle when you needed one?

Martyn1981

silvercar said:

shinytop said:

EVs are cheaper than ICE

Not a headline but based on my own search for a 2-3 year old, low mileage small hatch/\SUV.  About a grand less I'd say.  But even though I have off road parking/garage, do a lot of city driving and 95% of my trips are less than 200 miles I won't be getting one. Why? Because none of the ones I would buy can tow.  A bit short sighted of the manufacturers but I suppose it's not worth the effort for them.

It’s been discussed on Tesla forums. The downside to towing is the extra power used and the difficulty of charging while towing. There are a couple of charging stations that have room for charging with a tow, but they are few and far between.

Certainly an issue in the US where a lot of people like to tow, and Tesla is trying to expand its number of pull-through chargers for towing. At least the UK speed limit of 60 for towing, will help to offset a bit of the loss.*  [My only traffic ticket was towing, I was let off the nearly 70mph speed, but done for using the 3rd lane on the M5, where the uphill slog, slows down all the lorries, and I was trying to nip round. Very nice policeman.]

The 3 and Y can tow, but the Y is still pretty young in the UK, so higher SH prices.

*Edit - In the US they can drive just as fast, so 80mph pulling a big boat, trailer etc, kills BEV range (and of course ICE fuel efficiency).