EV Discussion thread

Magnitio

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Sorry if too late, but is it worth them waiting for the Juniper upgrade to the TMY, due soon(ish), but dates being kept quiet. Could be as soon as start of 2025. This is the big upgrade, equivalent to the Highland upgrade on the TM3.

Thanks Martyn,
They were aware and considered waiting (and also would have got a 7-seat) but the information was that none will be available until after the VED increases are in force so that would be a large cost increase.
Plus, the turbo has gone on their aged ICE and the interest-free finance offered right now is attractive to them.
They could not get the colour of choice, but did get a tow hitch (which is important for them)and gained a discount of £3.8k (plus the referral saving) against the same car listed on the website (inventory stock) so that seemed a good deal to go now.
They did look at the TM3 to compare how that was different being the Highland model and decided the change was not all that great.
Added to which, Tesla discounts seem to only be in the end of the quarter, so it would mean waiting until March if there are even any discounts on the Juniper when it first launches.
They had considered used models as well, but they became more expensive once the finance costs were considered.  The Model Y's seem better priced than Model 3 right at the moment.

At one stage, they nearly walked away as they found exactly the same as I found when first test driving about the regenerative braking being really rather odd.  I explained how that works in real life and you get used to it quickly.

As an aside, you say the Highland is a big upgrade.  Is it really?  A colleague has a Highland TM3 and it seems hardly any different in all honestly.  A slightly better range.  Slight body changes.  Screen in the back seat.  A change to the indicator stick being omitted (which is something he finds hard when turning and needing to indicate - for example roundabout exit).  Is there much more to the change?

There are lots of small improvements in the Highland that add up to a much better car. The most significant (if I was choosing a TM3) is the greatly improved ride and handling. The biggest downside are the indicator buttons, although there are after-market stalks starting to become available.

Martyn1981

Magnitio said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Sorry if too late, but is it worth them waiting for the Juniper upgrade to the TMY, due soon(ish), but dates being kept quiet. Could be as soon as start of 2025. This is the big upgrade, equivalent to the Highland upgrade on the TM3.

Thanks Martyn,
They were aware and considered waiting (and also would have got a 7-seat) but the information was that none will be available until after the VED increases are in force so that would be a large cost increase.
Plus, the turbo has gone on their aged ICE and the interest-free finance offered right now is attractive to them.
They could not get the colour of choice, but did get a tow hitch (which is important for them)and gained a discount of £3.8k (plus the referral saving) against the same car listed on the website (inventory stock) so that seemed a good deal to go now.
They did look at the TM3 to compare how that was different being the Highland model and decided the change was not all that great.
Added to which, Tesla discounts seem to only be in the end of the quarter, so it would mean waiting until March if there are even any discounts on the Juniper when it first launches.
They had considered used models as well, but they became more expensive once the finance costs were considered.  The Model Y's seem better priced than Model 3 right at the moment.

At one stage, they nearly walked away as they found exactly the same as I found when first test driving about the regenerative braking being really rather odd.  I explained how that works in real life and you get used to it quickly.

As an aside, you say the Highland is a big upgrade.  Is it really?  A colleague has a Highland TM3 and it seems hardly any different in all honestly.  A slightly better range.  Slight body changes.  Screen in the back seat.  A change to the indicator stick being omitted (which is something he finds hard when turning and needing to indicate - for example roundabout exit).  Is there much more to the change?

There are lots of small improvements in the Highland that add up to a much better car. The most significant (if I was choosing a TM3) is the greatly improved ride and handling. The biggest downside are the indicator buttons, although there are after-market stalks starting to become available.

And from memory the range increased by something like 8-10%, which was a (nice) surprise.

There are also rumours of a small battery change coming soon for 3 & Y I think, possibly a couple of kWh extra. Of course these could already be shipping (or some time off), as Tesla seems to announce steady upgrades after the switch and distribution starts, rather than before.

Grumpy_chap

Magnitio said:

There are lots of small improvements in the Highland that add up to a much better car. The most significant (if I was choosing a TM3) is the greatly improved ride and handling. The biggest downside are the indicator buttons, although there are after-market stalks starting to become available.

Thanks.

Those changes, plus the extended range (which I noted), but the new model will presumably not be with any discounts initially and suffer the increased VED.
How would you value the changes?
I am sure my friend will be very pleased with the TMY LR AWD with tow hitch with white interior and coloured paint and south of £49k.  By comparison the cheapest TM3 LR AWD is showing at 51k - not sure what could be found if actually in the market to buy.

Magnitio

Grumpy_chap said:

Magnitio said:

There are lots of small improvements in the Highland that add up to a much better car. The most significant (if I was choosing a TM3) is the greatly improved ride and handling. The biggest downside are the indicator buttons, although there are after-market stalks starting to become available.

Thanks.

Those changes, plus the extended range (which I noted), but the new model will presumably not be with any discounts initially and suffer the increased VED.
How would you value the changes?
I am sure my friend will be very pleased with the TMY LR AWD with tow hitch with white interior and coloured paint and south of £49k.  By comparison the cheapest TM3 LR AWD is showing at 51k - not sure what could be found if actually in the market to buy.

It's difficult to put a value on it. There is unlikely to be any discount on the new TMY for quite a while and I suspect many will be trading in their 3-year old TMY's for a new one. I'm sure they will be happy with it; if they are keeping it for many years, then any extra depreciation over the latest model will be irellevant. When I test drove a TMY, my main gripes were the width (it seemed huge) and the ride (which seemed overly-firm.)

michaels

Seems to me that we provide massive discounts to company EV buyers and zero to private ones.  I was reading that on a 30k car the saving in tax for a higher rate tax payer company car driver was of order 3.3k per year so on a 3 year lease the saving would be £10k

Why is the govt subsidising company car buyers by 10k and private car buyers by £0?!

Exiled_Tyke

michaels said:

Seems to me that we provide massive discounts to company EV buyers and zero to private ones.  I was reading that on a 30k car the saving in tax for a higher rate tax payer company car driver was of order 3.3k per year so on a 3 year lease the saving would be £10k

Why is the govt subsidising company car buyers by 10k and private car buyers by £0?!

Absolutely right! The only way I can afford and EV is as company car.  (my first company car in my long working life!)  I reckon the tax saving can actually be a lot higher than your figures deepening on the method of purchase and individual circumstances . 

michaels

Exiled_Tyke said:

michaels said:

Seems to me that we provide massive discounts to company EV buyers and zero to private ones.  I was reading that on a 30k car the saving in tax for a higher rate tax payer company car driver was of order 3.3k per year so on a 3 year lease the saving would be £10k

Why is the govt subsidising company car buyers by 10k and private car buyers by £0?!

Absolutely right! The only way I can afford and EV is as company car.  (my first company car in my long working life!)  I reckon the tax saving can actually be a lot higher than your figures deepening on the method of purchase and individual circumstances . 

Plus at the moment it is madly regressive as the biggest savings go to the most expensive cars driven by the highest rate taxpayers!!!  Surely even 'Rachael from accounts' could come up with a better scheme to meet the governments green objectives and share out the total subsidy pot more fairly!

Grumpy_chap

michaels said:

Why is the govt subsidising company car buyers by 10k and private car buyers by £0?!

The various news articles reported today have various car industry representatives pleading for incentives to make EVs cheaper to the customer.  Here is one typical article, but there have been several in the past couple of days.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c98dzyy850jo

Nothing from these representatives about their being wedded to continuing ICE for as long as possible.  It seems very brave of Jaguar to cease ICE production in full, sell no news cars for just over a year, and then relaunch as a new EV-only business from 2026.  That is very brave, but why can't other legacy auto be similarly brave?

Subsidy for EV's can, of course, come in the form of subsidy / incentive (which is like a negative tax) or could come in the form of tax on ICEs. 

The comments today from car industry representatives made me think that the current tax penalty is just too complex.  If EV sales are below 22%, then £15k tax per ICE sold over the quota.  Put another way, £15k tax on every ICE sold over 78% of total sales.  This is a sliding scale so the threshold increases every period between now and 2030.  This creates a cliff-edge, and a smoother approach could be applied:
EV 22% - ICE 78%, tax if ICE above that at £15k.  A straight forward tax of £200 per ICE sold would be much simpler to process.
Next year, the ICE tax could increase to £1k per ICE.
Then sliding scale the tax per ICE upwards - coupled with increasing volumes / decreasing cost per unit for EV - the price parity will drive EV sales.

Is that simple enough for Rachel in telesales?

michaels

Grumpy_chap said:

michaels said:

Why is the govt subsidising company car buyers by 10k and private car buyers by £0?!

The various news articles reported today have various car industry representatives pleading for incentives to make EVs cheaper to the customer.  Here is one typical article, but there have been several in the past couple of days.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c98dzyy850jo

Nothing from these representatives about their being wedded to continuing ICE for as long as possible.  It seems very brave of Jaguar to cease ICE production in full, sell no news cars for just over a year, and then relaunch as a new EV-only business from 2026.  That is very brave, but why can't other legacy auto be similarly brave?

Subsidy for EV's can, of course, come in the form of subsidy / incentive (which is like a negative tax) or could come in the form of tax on ICEs. 

The comments today from car industry representatives made me think that the current tax penalty is just too complex.  If EV sales are below 22%, then £15k tax per ICE sold over the quota.  Put another way, £15k tax on every ICE sold over 78% of total sales.  This is a sliding scale so the threshold increases every period between now and 2030.  This creates a cliff-edge, and a smoother approach could be applied:
EV 22% - ICE 78%, tax if ICE above that at £15k.  A straight forward tax of £200 per ICE sold would be much simpler to process.
Next year, the ICE tax could increase to £1k per ICE.
Then sliding scale the tax per ICE upwards - coupled with increasing volumes / decreasing cost per unit for EV - the price parity will drive EV sales.

Is that simple enough for Rachel in telesales?

I think the idea is that the ICE tax you identify acts on a sliding scale based on the mix of ICE to EV - so sell at least 22% EV and you pay no tax on each ICE, sell no EV and you pay 15k tax on each ICE.

Of course the manufacturers are portraying it as a 15k tax on each ice to make it sound unreasonable but actually if the for example miss by 2% (20% EV) then the actual tax per ICE is much lower.

Grumpy_chap

michaels said:

I think the idea is that the ICE tax you identify acts on a sliding scale based on the mix of ICE to EV - so sell at least 22% EV and you pay no tax on each ICE, sell no EV and you pay 15k tax on each ICE.

Of course the manufacturers are portraying it as a 15k tax on each ice to make it sound unreasonable but actually if the for example miss by 2% (20% EV) then the actual tax per ICE is much lower.

Yes, that is what I understand.

• Sell 100 cars of which 20 are EV and 80 are ICE, so that is 2 cars that attract the £15k tax. 
• Total £30k tax.
• £375 per ICE sold averaged out.

The trouble is, legacy auto cannot get away from the business model of achieving volume through heavy discounting  and they continue to discount ICE to get the volume.
It is only after the event that they will realise what mix of vehicles end up and the tax bill arising.
It actually requires legacy auto to understand and charge £375 more for every ICE throughout the year so the tax burden is more evenly distributed across the customers and the price differential between EV and ICE has narrowed a bit.
Or, charge £1k extra for each ICE so that the £375 tax can be covered and extra discount can be funded for EV.  Plus, if the target is met, so the tax avoided, extra profit to re-invest in the business and develop better EV products and manufacturing efficiencies.

I suspect the nearest to that any legacy auto manufacturer would be able to get to is

• Sell 100 cars of which 20 are EV and 80 are ICE, so that is 2 cars that attract the £15k tax. 
• Total £30k tax.
• £300 per car sold averaged out.

Simply putting the price of every car up by £300 but doing nothing to switch the mix of sales.

A tax per ICE sold would probably be far more effective.  Plus it would not require the manufacturers to do anything different - they can simply sell the cars as they do and treat / present the ICE tax of, say £500, as an extra line in the same way as VED is presented.  It might not be persuasive for many customer in the first year, but will be as that sliding scale tax steadily increases.

This could be an idea to get Rachel that move from Telesales to Accounts.

It is a shame that the only legacy auto to take a bold step is being ridiculed for it and risks losing sales.  A regular Jaguar customer with their 3 or 4 year PCP / company car lease falling in 2025 will be forced to try something else and might just like it.