EV Discussion thread

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

But only 8.8% of private buyers choose an EV. 

That might be a distorted figure.
I would expect that all petrol/diesel private sales will be recorded as such (historical company car still as business purchases).
However, I do not expect that all "private" EV sales are recorded as such given that the "private" EV buyer would convert their purchase to a business purchase if sal sac is available.  
I don't believe (but may be wrong and happy to be proven so) that PCP is classified as business purchases.

JKenH said:

What is perhaps most surprising is that Tesla, although taking the No.1 slot in December actually saw their sales for the year fall 9.25% in numerical terms in a market rising by 17.9%. Their share of the market fell by 23%. Model Y sales were flat y-o-y despite the Model Y not being available until half way through 2022 so the figures aren’t looking good for the Model 3 which was beaten by both the MG4 and the Audi Q4  e-tron.

This is materialisation of what I have said many times in these forums and elsewhere.
Tesla make the best electric car.
Others make better cars, some of which happen to be electric

This from the SMMT website with reference to 2022 sales. PCP sales will I believe fall into the private category. Elsewhere in the link you can see which categories several of the popular EVs fall into. https://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/SMMT-Motor-Industry-Facts-May-2023.pdf

silvercar

Grumpy_chap said:

This is materialisation of what I have said many times in these forums and elsewhere.
Tesla make the best electric car.
Others make better cars, some of which happen to be electric

There is a noticeable difference in driving a car which was designed as an electric car and driving a car which is now powered by electric. No comparison between our Tesla and our Leaf.

michaels said:

Model 3 sales were great when it was all that was available EV wise.  Now there is a choice it is a pretty unpopular form factor (a salon, not even a hatch) where any sales are dominated by the German marques for badge snob reasons - how many private buyers chose a mid sized saloon - 1%?

Lots of people want a Tesla, either because they see the brand as some sort of status, or they like the bells and whistles, or because they see it as a properly designed electric car. OH, whose previous cars were BMW and Mercedes, was happy to drive a Tesla.

MeteredOut

silvercar said:

Grumpy_chap said:

This is materialisation of what I have said many times in these forums and elsewhere.
Tesla make the best electric car.
Others make better cars, some of which happen to be electric

There is a noticeable difference in driving a car which was designed as an electric car and driving a car which is now powered by electric. No comparison between our Tesla and our Leaf.

michaels said:

Model 3 sales were great when it was all that was available EV wise.  Now there is a choice it is a pretty unpopular form factor (a salon, not even a hatch) where any sales are dominated by the German marques for badge snob reasons - how many private buyers chose a mid sized saloon - 1%?

Lots of people want a Tesla, either because they see the brand as some sort of status, or they like the bells and whistles, or because they see it as a properly designed electric car. OH, whose previous cars were BMW and Mercedes, was happy to drive a Tesla.

I also think there's an increasing number of people who are going off the brand because of Musk. For some reason, its getting a bit like Apple where people love the brand or hate the brand, and those somehow become more important than whether the product meets their needs.

I test drove a Tesla and I did like its feel, but I just don't like the styling of any of their models.

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

But only 8.8% of private buyers choose an EV. 

That might be a distorted figure.

This from the SMMT website with reference to 2022 sales. PCP sales will I believe fall into the private category. Elsewhere in the link you can see which categories several of the popular EVs fall into. https://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/SMMT-Motor-Industry-Facts-May-2023.pdf

Thanks, but I am not sure that captures the point I was making (or trying to make).

If an individual goes out to buy a petrol car, they will simply buy it and it is a "private" sale.

If an individual goes out to buy an EV car, they will look to see whether there is a tax-efficient scheme available.
That could be a small one-person Ltd Co (like me) who buys the EV as a company car rather than own car for the tax advantages.  That "private" car then gets reported in the small slice of "Business".
That could be a nurse who takes advantage of the NHS salsac scheme.  That "private" car then get reported in the slice of "Fleet".

This element of "private" cars showing as "Business or Fleet" will only really affect EV.

silvercar said:

Grumpy_chap said:

This is materialisation of what I have said many times in these forums and elsewhere.
Tesla make the best electric car.
Others make better cars, some of which happen to be electric

There is a noticeable difference in driving a car which was designed as an electric car and driving a car which is now powered by electric. No comparison between our Tesla and our Leaf.

I was not intending to compare "designed as electric" versus "powered by electric".
I am also confused as I understood both the Tesla and the Leaf were designed as EV from the outset??

What I meant to say was that Tesla seem to make the best EV.  This is really to do with the miles / kWh, range and charging network.
As a car, the Tesla is not as good as some alternatives.  That includes alternatives designed as an EV from the outset.  As the future progresses, all cars will be designed as EV from the outset in any case and other manufacturers will address the efficiency and range factors.  It will leave Tesla with only the charging network as their plus point - and that will become ever less important as range becomes standard and "on-the-road" charging becomes an irrelevance.

QrizB

MeteredOut said:

silvercar said:

Lots of people want a Tesla, either because they see the brand as some sort of status, or they like the bells and whistles, or because they see it as a properly designed electric car. OH, whose previous cars were BMW and Mercedes, was happy to drive a Tesla.

I also think there's an increasing number of people who are going off the brand because of Musk. For some reason, its getting a bit like Apple where people love the brand or hate the brand, and those somehow become more important than whether the product meets their needs.

As evidenced by these bumper stickers:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275656132532

1961Nick

QrizB said:

MeteredOut said:

silvercar said:

Lots of people want a Tesla, either because they see the brand as some sort of status, or they like the bells and whistles, or because they see it as a properly designed electric car. OH, whose previous cars were BMW and Mercedes, was happy to drive a Tesla.

I also think there's an increasing number of people who are going off the brand because of Musk. For some reason, its getting a bit like Apple where people love the brand or hate the brand, and those somehow become more important than whether the product meets their needs.

As evidenced by these bumper stickers:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275656132532

On the other hand - If Elon Musk wasn't crazy, Tesla & SpaceX wouldn't exist. 

silvercar

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

But only 8.8% of private buyers choose an EV. 

That might be a distorted figure.

This from the SMMT website with reference to 2022 sales. PCP sales will I believe fall into the private category. Elsewhere in the link you can see which categories several of the popular EVs fall into. https://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/SMMT-Motor-Industry-Facts-May-2023.pdf

Thanks, but I am not sure that captures the point I was making (or trying to make).

If an individual goes out to buy a petrol car, they will simply buy it and it is a "private" sale.

If an individual goes out to buy an EV car, they will look to see whether there is a tax-efficient scheme available.
That could be a small one-person Ltd Co (like me) who buys the EV as a company car rather than own car for the tax advantages.  That "private" car then gets reported in the small slice of "Business".
That could be a nurse who takes advantage of the NHS salsac scheme.  That "private" car then get reported in the slice of "Fleet".

This element of "private" cars showing as "Business or Fleet" will only really affect EV.

silvercar said:

Grumpy_chap said:

This is materialisation of what I have said many times in these forums and elsewhere.
Tesla make the best electric car.
Others make better cars, some of which happen to be electric

There is a noticeable difference in driving a car which was designed as an electric car and driving a car which is now powered by electric. No comparison between our Tesla and our Leaf.

I was not intending to compare "designed as electric" versus "powered by electric".
I am also confused as I understood both the Tesla and the Leaf were designed as EV from the outset??

What I meant to say was that Tesla seem to make the best EV.  This is really to do with the miles / kWh, range and charging network.
As a car, the Tesla is not as good as some alternatives.  That includes alternatives designed as an EV from the outset.  As the future progresses, all cars will be designed as EV from the outset in any case and other manufacturers will address the efficiency and range factors.  It will leave Tesla with only the charging network as their plus point - and that will become ever less important as range becomes standard and "on-the-road" charging becomes an irrelevance.

Ok, but Tesla are an electric car manufacturer, whereas Nissan are a car manufacturer who are now producing electric cars. Driving the Tesla feels like driving something new. Driving the Leaf, as a previous Nissan ICE driver, feels like driving any other car albeit one with a different power source.

Martyn1981

silvercar said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

But only 8.8% of private buyers choose an EV. 

That might be a distorted figure.

This from the SMMT website with reference to 2022 sales. PCP sales will I believe fall into the private category. Elsewhere in the link you can see which categories several of the popular EVs fall into. https://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/SMMT-Motor-Industry-Facts-May-2023.pdf

Thanks, but I am not sure that captures the point I was making (or trying to make).

If an individual goes out to buy a petrol car, they will simply buy it and it is a "private" sale.

If an individual goes out to buy an EV car, they will look to see whether there is a tax-efficient scheme available.
That could be a small one-person Ltd Co (like me) who buys the EV as a company car rather than own car for the tax advantages.  That "private" car then gets reported in the small slice of "Business".
That could be a nurse who takes advantage of the NHS salsac scheme.  That "private" car then get reported in the slice of "Fleet".

This element of "private" cars showing as "Business or Fleet" will only really affect EV.

silvercar said:

Grumpy_chap said:

This is materialisation of what I have said many times in these forums and elsewhere.
Tesla make the best electric car.
Others make better cars, some of which happen to be electric

There is a noticeable difference in driving a car which was designed as an electric car and driving a car which is now powered by electric. No comparison between our Tesla and our Leaf.

I was not intending to compare "designed as electric" versus "powered by electric".
I am also confused as I understood both the Tesla and the Leaf were designed as EV from the outset??

What I meant to say was that Tesla seem to make the best EV.  This is really to do with the miles / kWh, range and charging network.
As a car, the Tesla is not as good as some alternatives.  That includes alternatives designed as an EV from the outset.  As the future progresses, all cars will be designed as EV from the outset in any case and other manufacturers will address the efficiency and range factors.  It will leave Tesla with only the charging network as their plus point - and that will become ever less important as range becomes standard and "on-the-road" charging becomes an irrelevance.

Ok, but Tesla are an electric car manufacturer, whereas Nissan are a car manufacturer who are now producing electric cars. Driving the Tesla feels like driving something new. Driving the Leaf, as a previous Nissan ICE driver, feels like driving any other car albeit one with a different power source.

Yep, I see your point now. Like GC I was also slightly confused about the Leaf origins.

I did like our SH 2014 24kWh Leaf, great introduction to BEV's. Incredible pull (for such a small power figure), and 'hill - what hill?' torque, that previously required a V8 or turbo-diesel. It was also educational, its being so bad in terms of efficiency/range, it showed wifey and I the problems of shorter range BEV's, that we wouldn't have appreciated if we'd entered from the Tesla end.

Perhaps the problems with the Leaf are demonstrated, as you say, by Nissan being primarily an ICE manufacturerer, and seemingly happy to remain as such. Our 2018 28kWh IONIQ has a pretty solid 130 miles of range, v's the 70 at best of the Leaf - and now you've made me think, Hyundai/Kia are one of the legacy companies pushing hardest for BEV's, and reporting good sales, in the face of other companies reporting sales declines/slowdowns, last year.

MeteredOut

1961Nick said:

QrizB said:

MeteredOut said:

silvercar said:

Lots of people want a Tesla, either because they see the brand as some sort of status, or they like the bells and whistles, or because they see it as a properly designed electric car. OH, whose previous cars were BMW and Mercedes, was happy to drive a Tesla.

I also think there's an increasing number of people who are going off the brand because of Musk. For some reason, its getting a bit like Apple where people love the brand or hate the brand, and those somehow become more important than whether the product meets their needs.

As evidenced by these bumper stickers:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275656132532

On the other hand - If Elon Musk wasn't crazy, Tesla & SpaceX wouldn't exist. 

You know Tesla existed before Musk took control, yes?

(but I get it might not still be around, or would not exist in its current form, if he did not)

MeteredOut

On the Tesla v Leaf dicussions, I think other manufactures will (and are) catching up. They (naturally) based their BEV cars on their equivalent ICE car platform/technology/chassis etc (to save on design/manufacturing costs), but, as time goes on, and as ICE car manufacturing stops, they too will have ground-up BEV designs.