EV Discussion thread

JKenH

thevilla said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

thevilla said:

PMikeJXE said:

EricMears said:

MikeJXE said:

I don't worry about them, what would be the point I can't do anything about it. 

If the whole world thinks "I can't do anything about it"  then absolutely no 'improvement' could ever happen.  But if everyone decided to try and make some effort towards improving things then something might result.

A fat chance of that ever happening 

Go and tell your grandchildren they will have a far more difficult and dangerous adult life because you and many of the other 8 billion on earth simply couldn't be bothered until everyone else was.

But will they? Society as a whole may suffer if we fail to tackle climate change but on an individual level, particularly in the UK, there is less to worry about. The people who will suffer will be those in poorer countries who have limited options. Usually those who act in an altruistic manner profit the least from their altruism. 

As an example, giving all your money away to charities supporting the poor may not benefit your children and grandchildren as much as investing it in, say, good wholesome food and a good education for them. 

Is your duty to your family or to the inhabitants of the undeveloped world? There is no right answer to that question.

I hope you are not hopelessly naive. Lots of people have seen their homes flooded who never previously did, in the UK and when the !!!!!! hits in terms of food production even poor countries turn down money and feed their own. UK produces 50% of the calories we eat.

Be careful not to confuse weather and climate. I posted recently about the BBC incorrectly attributing weather events to climate change. Many of our recent flooding events have been exacerbated by increasing urbanisation resulting in more rapid run off in built up areas. Flooding following heavy rain has occurred for millennia both here and abroad. Remember the Lynmouth floods in the UK in 1952? 

The UK could produce much more of the food we eat. It is largely for commercial reasons (it’s cheaper) we import food and of course we all like to eat crops out of season, plus many favour foreign diets - an increasing trend with increasing immigration. When I was a kid the only rice that got consumed was in rice pudding! In a temperate climate (like much of the populated northern hemisphere) climate change may have a net positive benefit. Some areas may no longer be able to grow certain crops but it may open up production in certain other areas. You could, of course, petition to stop building solar farms on agricultural land if you are that worried about food security.

It's not usually possible to attribute a single event to climate change but are you suggesting there is no trend?  Your earlier post suggested you were enjoying the benefits of warmer weather.  Even short term trends can't be positively attributed afaik but the coffee seems to be very fragrant and virtually no one is in the denial camp now.  Still some want to sit on their hands.  If we'd doubled our efforts 30 years ago we'd have another 30 years to fix our damage.

No. Temperatures are getting warmer. We certainly seem to have a lot less snow and a lot less burst pipes now than when I was young. However we had hot summers in the 1970s - 1976 impacted the country, I believe just as badly as any recent hot summer. Have a read of this Countryfile article on the summer of 1976.
https://www.countryfile.com/countryfile/great-drought-of-1976-what-happened-and-what-was-the-impact-on-britain

michaels

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

thevilla said:

PMikeJXE said:

EricMears said:

MikeJXE said:

I don't worry about them, what would be the point I can't do anything about it. 

If the whole world thinks "I can't do anything about it"  then absolutely no 'improvement' could ever happen.  But if everyone decided to try and make some effort towards improving things then something might result.

A fat chance of that ever happening 

Go and tell your grandchildren they will have a far more difficult and dangerous adult life because you and many of the other 8 billion on earth simply couldn't be bothered until everyone else was.

But will they? Society as a whole may suffer if we fail to tackle climate change but on an individual level, particularly in the UK, there is less to worry about. The people who will suffer will be those in poorer countries who have limited options. Usually those who act in an altruistic manner profit the least from their altruism. 

As an example, giving all your money away to charities supporting the poor may not benefit your children and grandchildren as much as investing it in, say, good wholesome food and a good education for them. 

Is your duty to your family or to the inhabitants of the undeveloped world? There is no right answer to that question.

I hope you are not hopelessly naive. Lots of people have seen their homes flooded who never previously did, in the UK and when the !!!!!! hits in terms of food production even poor countries turn down money and feed their own. UK produces 50% of the calories we eat.

Be careful not to confuse weather and climate. I posted recently about the BBC incorrectly attributing weather events to climate change. Many of our recent flooding events have been exacerbated by increasing urbanisation resulting in more rapid run off in built up areas. Flooding following heavy rain has occurred for millennia both here and abroad. Remember the Lynmouth floods in the UK in 1952? 

The UK could produce much more of the food we eat. It is largely for commercial reasons (it’s cheaper) we import food and of course we all like to eat crops out of season, plus many favour foreign diets - an increasing trend with increasing immigration. When I was a kid the only rice that got consumed was in rice pudding! In a temperate climate (like much of the populated northern hemisphere) climate change may have a net positive benefit. Some areas may no longer be able to grow certain crops but it may open up production in certain other areas. You could, of course, petition to stop building solar farms on agricultural land if you are that worried about food security.

I guess the existing weather data should be sufficient to determine if there has been an increase in intense/prolonged rainfall events compared to historic periods or whether any increase in flooding events (if there is one) is due to differences in water management (run off etc)

thevilla

In 1976 nowhere in the UK recorded 40 degrees.

You used the weather vs climate argument but now seem to be backing anecdotal memories.  The overwhelming evidence, or so we're told  by you those who know, is climate is changing rapidly due to man's influence.   Given the likely consequences how can anyone justify doing nothing or too little?

Edit: 1976 Those ladybirds were painful when hungry ☺ and the rivers drier maybe due to a lack of sewage.

Grumpy_chap

QrizB said:

Grumpy_chap said:

The big benefit of an EV over a younger woman is that buying an EV means I can keep my wife and all my bodily parts intact.

If you're not sure about an EV you can rent one for a few hours or days to see how it suits you.
I guess you could do the same for the other option, too ...

Our local branches of Hertz, Sixt and Enterprise don't seem to list rates or availability for "the other option".
Maybe it is a regional thing.
Probably just as well as I don't think even a short term rental would leave me with all my bodily parts intact.

JKenH

Although the official release of SMMT figures for December is not due until 9am SMMT have suggested the share of new EVs actually fell slightly in 2023. 

Car industry calls for VAT to be halved on new EVs

A halving of VAT on electric cars to 10 percent for three years would help make EVs more affordable for private buyers and put an extra 270,000 electric cars onto UK roads, says the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT).

The car industry trade body says the UK is now the only major European car market without any EV incentives for private buyers.

The Plug-in Car Grant was controversially phased out in summer 2022.

This is now being reflected in new car sales figures, with the growth of electric car sales actually falling in 2023, to a market share of 16.5 percent.

https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/halve-ev-vat-smmt-call/

JKenH

New car market delivers best year since 2019 as fleets fuel growth

But only 8.8% of private buyers choose an EV. 

What is perhaps most surprising is that Tesla, although taking the No.1 slot in December actually saw their sales for the year fall 9.25% in numerical terms in a market rising by 17.9%. Their share of the market fell by 23%. Model Y sales were flat y-o-y despite the Model Y not being available until half way through 2022 so the figures aren’t looking good for the Model 3 which was beaten by both the MG4 and the Audi Q4  e-tron.

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2024/01/new-car-market-delivers-best-year-since-2019-as-fleets-fuel-growth/

Edit: in 2021 Tesla sold 34783 Model 3s, 19,071 in 2022 and in 2023 just 13536. There were just 701 non Model Y sales  (mainly Model 3s as The S and X are now LHD only) in December, traditionally a good month for Tesla and Model 3, compared to 5704 Model 3 sales in December 2022.

Netexporter

But only 8.8% of private buyers choose an EV.

Because many private "sales" are on PCP, so the fleets buy the vehicles and the end users effectively rent them.

JKenH

Netexporter said:

But only 8.8% of private buyers choose an EV.

Because many private "sales" are on PCP, so the fleets buy the vehicles and the end users effectively rent them.

Are you sure that PCP sales are classed as fleet? Leases, yes but PCP I think not. The real reason private EV sales are so low is that the SalSac and company car schemes are so attractive to EV buyers from a tax point of view. 

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

But only 8.8% of private buyers choose an EV. 

That might be a distorted figure.
I would expect that all petrol/diesel private sales will be recorded as such (historical company car still as business purchases).
However, I do not expect that all "private" EV sales are recorded as such given that the "private" EV buyer would convert their purchase to a business purchase if sal sac is available.  
I don't believe (but may be wrong and happy to be proven so) that PCP is classified as business purchases.

JKenH said:

What is perhaps most surprising is that Tesla, although taking the No.1 slot in December actually saw their sales for the year fall 9.25% in numerical terms in a market rising by 17.9%. Their share of the market fell by 23%. Model Y sales were flat y-o-y despite the Model Y not being available until half way through 2022 so the figures aren’t looking good for the Model 3 which was beaten by both the MG4 and the Audi Q4  e-tron.

This is materialisation of what I have said many times in these forums and elsewhere.
Tesla make the best electric car.
Others make better cars, some of which happen to be electric

michaels

JKenH said:

New car market delivers best year since 2019 as fleets fuel growth

But only 8.8% of private buyers choose an EV. 

What is perhaps most surprising is that Tesla, although taking the No.1 slot in December actually saw their sales for the year fall 9.25% in numerical terms in a market rising by 17.9%. Their share of the market fell by 23%. Model Y sales were flat y-o-y despite the Model Y not being available until half way through 2022 so the figures aren’t looking good for the Model 3 which was beaten by both the MG4 and the Audi Q4  e-tron.

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2024/01/new-car-market-delivers-best-year-since-2019-as-fleets-fuel-growth/

Edit: in 2021 Tesla sold 34783 Model 3s, 19,071 in 2022 and in 2023 just 13536. There were just 701 non Model Y sales  (mainly Model 3s as The S and X are now LHD only) in December, traditionally a good month for Tesla and Model 3, compared to 5704 Model 3 sales in December 2022.

Model 3 sales were great when it was all that was available EV wise.  Now there is a choice it is a pretty unpopular form factor (a salon, not even a hatch) where any sales are dominated by the German marques for badge snob reasons - how many private buyers chose a mid sized saloon - 1%?