EV Discussion thread

JKenH

We visited Brigg Garden Centretoday and not having been there since last Christmas I was pleasantly surprised to see 3 Osprey rapid charging units - all unoccupied. I wandered over out of curiosity and saw the screens said all 3 were out of order. Then I noticed there were no charging cables. I had read recently that thieves had taken a fancy to charging cables but this was the first time I had seen it first hand.

JKenH

I mentioned in an earlier post how freely Tesla spent money on lawyers robustly fighting claims for driving failures allegedly caused by software issues; well, according to this report from Reuters, it seems they have also adopted a similar attitude to many steering and suspension failures. Reportedly, US and European customers have been forced to foot the bill for repairs when customers in China have not due to a more robust stance being taken by the Chinese authorities. 

Tesla blamed drivers for failures of parts it long knew were defective

Wheels falling off cars at speed. Suspensions collapsing on brand-new vehicles. Axles breaking under acceleration. Tens of thousands of customers told Tesla about a host of part failures on low-mileage cars. The automaker sought to blame drivers for vehicle ‘abuse,’ but Tesla documents show it had tracked the chronic ‘flaws’ and ‘failures’ for years.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

I see all sorts of potential problems with this sort of computer controlled behaviour.

I am not against speed limits per se but removing the ability to exceed them on occasion can be just as dangerous. 

No tech is foolproof and the way speed assist systems work can easily lead to situations where the incorrect speed limit is set. GPS maps may be out of date, road signs obscured, on board camera lenses obscured etc. Many Tesla owners frequently find autopilot is disabled in certain visibility related situations so will intelligent speed assist (ISA) systems work any better? The more we get used to relying on them the less responsibility we take as drivers and the more potential for accidents.

While I might use adaptive cruise (ACC) on motorways, there are situations when I turn it off 

I will add to my post from yesterday - the speed restriction for poor road conditions is probably a good thing overall.  I do think, though, it should be a clearly advised functionality and have some capacity to be over-ridden by the driver.  It is also one of those things that will become "better" as the prevalence increases.  Probably, everyone should have reduced their speed a bit yesterday, but I found myself forced to do so.  Most drivers had not.  That creates a discrepancy and potential hazard moving slower than the prevailing road speed.  To be successful, this type of intervention needs to have a critical mass whereby the vehicles that are slow enough are sufficient in quantity that those not slowed are restricted by weight of traffic.  The complexity is that it then requires all cars of all makes, ages, levels of maintenance, to have very similarly calibrated detectors and responses to the change of road conditions.  Which brings you right back to needing the ability to disable the restriction - if one car has a faulty sensor that thinks it is a horrendous night-time blizzard despite being a hot, dry, sunny, summer day, that car is forced out of sync with the prevailing traffic.

I have not yet reviewed the manual to see whether the speed restriction can be disabled in the TM3.

Today also saw the Lane Keep Assist disabled by the car "Lane Departure Avoidance features unavailable.  Features  may be restored on next drive".  The alert arose at the same distance from home as yesterday and no apparent reason.  
Auto-steer was asking for more than usual (but fewer than yesterday) steering wheel wobbles.  Maybe this is re-calibrating following the software update.
I also noticed a new message not seen yesterday or before that appeared a few times "Autosteer speed restricted to 60 / 50 / 40 / 30 mph".  At least this could be over-ridden by deactivating autosteer.


I also did my second charge away from home and it was all very smooth.  At the end of the day at work, outside so cold, I would normally stop for a coffee nearby before really starting.  I also knew (suspected) I needed to charge to make the journey and on returning to the car, it suggested a stop half an hour away.
The location was no further from the main road route than a motorway services from the motorway.
It was located at Holiday Inn hotel (with a sign offering discount food and drink to Tesla drivers - quite possibly prompted by the other outlets very nearby).
Arrived at the stop with 9% battery remaining and forecast -7% (minus) on arrival home.
Set to charge and went in to get my coffee.  Two minutes after plugging in (I'd barely walked across the car park) I received the message that the car was sufficiently charged to complete the journey.
35 minutes after plugging in, I received the message that I was fully charged (80%).  That was 56 kWh charge added.
Finished my coffee, and was driving off again 38 minutes after pulling up.

Both times I have needed to charge away from home, it has gone very smoothly.  The thing I might like is a choice of charge points on route - the early coffee stop worked well for me but sometimes a later stop might suit better.  I'd also like the ability to pick a charge even if the car does not think it is needed - I may have wanted to stop and charge on the route to work rather than the route home.

I also note the car does battery conditioning ahead of a charge on route.  What is it actually doing?  Apart from humming?

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

I also note the car does battery conditioning ahead of a charge on route.  What is it actually doing?  Apart from humming?

Hi. It heats or cools the pack, to get it to the optimum condition so that it can charge as quickly as possible.

Did it start about 15min from the SC location?

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I also note the car does battery conditioning ahead of a charge on route.  What is it actually doing?  Apart from humming?

Hi. It heats or cools the pack, to get it to the optimum condition so that it can charge as quickly as possible.

Did it start about 15min from the SC location?

Yes, there or thereabouts.


I am also going to add further thoughts on the cruise control options.
ACC is excellent on a free-flowing motorway.  It fails completely in built up areas or rural areas where there can be obstacles that you steer round - like parked cars.
Fixed CC can be better in that type of scenario.
Far better is speed limiter.  Several years ago I had the fairly regular use of a Citroen C5 which had standard cruise control (set a fixed speed) and speed limiter (set a maximum speed but control using the throttle up to the set point).
For cars where everything is software controlled, there is no reason that the software could not also include fixed speed and / or speed limiter functionality.
In my opinion, full ACC or speed limiter functionality would be preferable to only having ACC.
I don't know why this type of feature is not commonly included where a car has ACC.

michaels

Always use the speed limiter when I get in a 20 zone as it s just so easy to go over - but I do set at about 23 based on the speedo over-read and sneaking an extra 1mph...

Speaking of speedo over-read our mark 1 leaf shows 70mph when the actual speed (on the phone) is about 63 and similar at other speeds so a built in speed limiter would mean driving every where at 10% below the actual limit.

MikeJXE

michaels said:

Always use the speed limiter when I get in a 20 zone as it s just so easy to go over - but I do set at about 23 based on the speedo over-read and sneaking an extra 1mph...

Speaking of speedo over-read our mark 1 leaf shows 70mph when the actual speed (on the phone) is about 63 and similar at other speeds so a built in speed limiter would mean driving every where at 10% below the actual limit.

10% higher speed than actual is exactly what I get in my Jag 

Reed_Richards

JKenH said:

How long before cars are hacked and taken over by rogue actors and you find yourself hurtling down the road out of control? Is that really so far fetched?

"Upload" season 1 episode 1.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upload_(TV_series).  

1961Nick

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

MeteredOut said:

Surely you can get quotes with wha you know your NCB will be? Or, do you not know? It should be last years renewal quote + 1 year

Magnitio said:

It should be included as part of the documentation provided with the renewal quote.

Thanks but, obviously, I don't know what the NCB is.
I don't know what it was last year so can't simply +1
It is not stated in the renewal documents.

I have asked the current insurer to confirm.  I have asked several times.  They are making me grumpy


Also making me grumpy is the TM3 did a software update over the weekend and it is very temperamental for it.
There is a new feature to activate auto-steer at the same time as cruise control.  I disabled that as it can often be useful to have cruise control but not autosteer.

The lane-keeping assistant has become very aggressive, so much so that I was over-riding it so much in the first two miles it self-disabled for the remainder of the journey.  Maybe it is a calibration process after the update?
I also found the autosteer when used was requiring far more "wobbles" of the steering wheel.  Maybe another post-update calibration.

One very annoying thing - I don't know whether it is the update - but the car slowed be down (to 65 and then to 60) for periods on the motorway with the message "Speed Restricted - poor road conditions".  I hope this can be disabled.

My update does not appear to have included the "dogging" game - perhaps that only activates in Lincolnshire.  I won't be going near there anytime to find out.

I think this will be a lot more common in the future (on all cars, not just EVs) with both the car “nannying” us and outside agencies intervening, such as the HA on motorways being able to control our speed “to improve traffic flow” or limit speed in fog or even bring our cars to a halt. Potentially cars in the not too distant future may be speed limited everywhere. Google maps already knows the speed limits on sections of roads so couple that with the tech already in a Tesla and it really can’t be that far away.

While some may approve of such intervention, the fact that it is first appearing widely in EVs means inevitably that EVs will be regarded as the thin end of the wedge for those who want to keep control of our cars.

Many if not all EVs are capable of over the air “upgrades” so I can imagine these safety improvements will be coming thick and fast whether we want them or not. If we refuse the latest update will our cars be disabled or our insurance rendered invalid?

How long before cars are hacked and taken over by rogue actors and you find yourself hurtling down the road out of control? Is that really so far fetched?

You do know all new cars in the EU for the last year or two have speed limit assist - basically automatic speed limiter linked to the speed limit of the road - don't know if there is generally an over ride or how it is activated if there is.

Thanks, I wasn’t aware so have had a look into it. It seems the driver can override for now. I see all sorts of potential problems with this sort of computer controlled behaviour.


You can be stuck behind a vehicle going very slowly on twisty bits of road that then on a straighter bit of road accelerates up to a few mph below the speed limit meaning you would be stuck behind it indefinitely as you could only pass it effectively at walking pace. Overtaking long slow moving vehicles (like a tractor towing a trailer) becomes problematic because the manoeuvre takes so much longer that there is more opportunity for another car to appear coming from the opposite direction. Without the ability to accelerate out of trouble and complete the manoeuvre the potential exists to create more accidents. 

I am not against speed limits per se but removing the ability to exceed them on occasion can be just as dangerous. 

No tech is foolproof and the way speed assist systems work can easily lead to situations where the incorrect speed limit is set. GPS maps may be out of date, road signs obscured, on board camera lenses obscured etc. Many Tesla owners frequently find autopilot is disabled in certain visibility related situations so will intelligent speed assist (ISA) systems work any better? The more we get used to relying on them the less responsibility we take as drivers and the more potential for accidents.

While I might use adaptive cruise (ACC) on motorways, there are situations when I turn it off because I feel I can do a better job manually of adjusting my speed up or down for smoother driving. A typical case in point is when sitting in the middle lane overtaking a line of lorries on a hill with ACC set at 70 and a slower vehicle in front travelling at say 60. The vehicle in front having passed the lorries moves to the near side lane. Your car on ACC accelerates back up to the speed limit just as the car, now on the inside lane realises he should have stayed in the middle lane and pulls back out again. Braking ensues. A driver can anticipate these situations but a computer doesn’t and your car is accelerating towards a potential crash.


ISA is generally a good thing, as is ACC used correctly but in certain situations can be more hindrance than help, particularly where the flexibility to override is removed. 

What I would ask, though, is if cars are going to have ISA built in then what is the point of having more than say 150bhp or 300Nm of torque in any car? It doesn’t serve any purpose than in a traffic light Grand Prix. My neighbours son managed to stuff his Aston Martin into a hedge within 100 yards of setting off because the car had far more power and torque than he could handle. If you are going to have ISA then also limit all cars to, say, 80mph top speed and 0-60 in 10 seconds. 

I believe that you will be able to override the electronic speed limiter by mashing the accelerator pedal. That of course would lead to some pretty insane overtaking speeds in many EVs.

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

MeteredOut said:

Surely you can get quotes with wha you know your NCB will be? Or, do you not know? It should be last years renewal quote + 1 year

Magnitio said:

It should be included as part of the documentation provided with the renewal quote.

Thanks but, obviously, I don't know what the NCB is.
I don't know what it was last year so can't simply +1
It is not stated in the renewal documents.

I have asked the current insurer to confirm.  I have asked several times.  They are making me grumpy


Also making me grumpy is the TM3 did a software update over the weekend and it is very temperamental for it.
There is a new feature to activate auto-steer at the same time as cruise control.  I disabled that as it can often be useful to have cruise control but not autosteer.

The lane-keeping assistant has become very aggressive, so much so that I was over-riding it so much in the first two miles it self-disabled for the remainder of the journey.  Maybe it is a calibration process after the update?
I also found the autosteer when used was requiring far more "wobbles" of the steering wheel.  Maybe another post-update calibration.

One very annoying thing - I don't know whether it is the update - but the car slowed be down (to 65 and then to 60) for periods on the motorway with the message "Speed Restricted - poor road conditions".  I hope this can be disabled.

My update does not appear to have included the "dogging" game - perhaps that only activates in Lincolnshire.  I won't be going near there anytime to find out.

I think this will be a lot more common in the future (on all cars, not just EVs) with both the car “nannying” us and outside agencies intervening, such as the HA on motorways being able to control our speed “to improve traffic flow” or limit speed in fog or even bring our cars to a halt. Potentially cars in the not too distant future may be speed limited everywhere. Google maps already knows the speed limits on sections of roads so couple that with the tech already in a Tesla and it really can’t be that far away.

While some may approve of such intervention, the fact that it is first appearing widely in EVs means inevitably that EVs will be regarded as the thin end of the wedge for those who want to keep control of our cars.

Many if not all EVs are capable of over the air “upgrades” so I can imagine these safety improvements will be coming thick and fast whether we want them or not. If we refuse the latest update will our cars be disabled or our insurance rendered invalid?

How long before cars are hacked and taken over by rogue actors and you find yourself hurtling down the road out of control? Is that really so far fetched?

You do know all new cars in the EU for the last year or two have speed limit assist - basically automatic speed limiter linked to the speed limit of the road - don't know if there is generally an over ride or how it is activated if there is.

Thanks, I wasn’t aware so have had a look into it. It seems the driver can override for now. I see all sorts of potential problems with this sort of computer controlled behaviour.


You can be stuck behind a vehicle going very slowly on twisty bits of road that then on a straighter bit of road accelerates up to a few mph below the speed limit meaning you would be stuck behind it indefinitely as you could only pass it effectively at walking pace. Overtaking long slow moving vehicles (like a tractor towing a trailer) becomes problematic because the manoeuvre takes so much longer that there is more opportunity for another car to appear coming from the opposite direction. Without the ability to accelerate out of trouble and complete the manoeuvre the potential exists to create more accidents. 

I am not against speed limits per se but removing the ability to exceed them on occasion can be just as dangerous. 

No tech is foolproof and the way speed assist systems work can easily lead to situations where the incorrect speed limit is set. GPS maps may be out of date, road signs obscured, on board camera lenses obscured etc. Many Tesla owners frequently find autopilot is disabled in certain visibility related situations so will intelligent speed assist (ISA) systems work any better? The more we get used to relying on them the less responsibility we take as drivers and the more potential for accidents.

While I might use adaptive cruise (ACC) on motorways, there are situations when I turn it off because I feel I can do a better job manually of adjusting my speed up or down for smoother driving. A typical case in point is when sitting in the middle lane overtaking a line of lorries on a hill with ACC set at 70 and a slower vehicle in front travelling at say 60. The vehicle in front having passed the lorries moves to the near side lane. Your car on ACC accelerates back up to the speed limit just as the car, now on the inside lane realises he should have stayed in the middle lane and pulls back out again. Braking ensues. A driver can anticipate these situations but a computer doesn’t and your car is accelerating towards a potential crash.


ISA is generally a good thing, as is ACC used correctly but in certain situations can be more hindrance than help, particularly where the flexibility to override is removed. 

What I would ask, though, is if cars are going to have ISA built in then what is the point of having more than say 150bhp or 300Nm of torque in any car? It doesn’t serve any purpose than in a traffic light Grand Prix. My neighbours son managed to stuff his Aston Martin into a hedge within 100 yards of setting off because the car had far more power and torque than he could handle. If you are going to have ISA then also limit all cars to, say, 80mph top speed and 0-60 in 10 seconds. 

I believe that you will be able to override the electronic speed limiter by mashing the accelerator pedal. That of course would lead to some pretty insane overtaking speeds in many EVs.

I hate to imagine the consequences in an M3P on a wet Lincolnshire road like Bank End. I’m sure it would be fun to try setting the speed limiter to 50 and seeing just what happens if you plant it. Is it possible to disable ESP and TC on a Tesla? With ICE cars like the MX5 there’s always a bit of residual stability control with them switched off unless you pull the fuses.