EV Discussion thread

michaels

Our leaf gets squealy brakes, generally first thing when reversing out of the drive on quiet mornings.  Fix is an emergency stop.

Martyn1981

I was underwhelmed by the CT launch. Nice start with some impressive numbers and feats, especially the drag race against a 911, whilst the CT was towing a trailer with another 911 on it.

But then it was all over, no real specs. Perhaps they had to be careful this time as the launch was before the market had closed, so there are rules about releasing info that can impact prices. But it was Tesla's choice to hold the event earlier, and they could have gone a couple of hours later.

Specs were OK, buit the promised 500 mile range is achieved with the purchase of the range extender battery, taking the AWD model to 470 miles+. So that will be on top of the purchase price.

Prices are quite a bit higher. Assuming the 250 mile RWD at $60k is equivalent to the single motor announced originally, then that's up from $40k, or around $48k after inflation. If it's actually a dual motor, then roughly on par with the original figure of $50k after inflation. I'm doubtful they are the same, but Tesla did say a year or two back that they might drop the single motor variant, as demand had been very low, most orders were for the 2 and 3 motor. Regardless, the RWD won't be available to 2025 anyway.

The AWD at $80k is a lot higher than the original dual motor, say $60k after inflation. And the Cyberbeast option at $100k is way above the triple motor figure of $70k, call it $85k with inflation, but again the bigger batt will cost more (no prices given yet but rumours/suggestions are $16k), so more again.

I'd suggest the prices are high enough not to cause any panic with Ford, GM, Ram and Rivian, but low enough to raise a little concern. But those companies should be safe regardless, as the CT orderbook is around 2m, so even if half drop out, that's still 4-5yrs of ramped production, taking Tesla through 2028(ish)?

If I was a competitor, what would concern me, is Tesla's normal approach to cover costs with their prices*, and then bring them down, over time, as production ramps into the highest level

No problems selling them as fast as they can build them in 2024 and 2025. Then we'll see what the market thinks. Speaking of the market, no real impact till it closed. Then a drop of ~3% on the pre-market initially, before rising to about minus 1%. I'm going to bravely suggest that today we will see the market respond with a drop, rise, or nothing!

Learnt their lesson this time and threw what looked like a baseball at the side window, rather than a large steel ball. 

*Obviously CAPEX and early OPEX, will mean a loss per vehicle when production is very low with minimal ramping.

michaels

Not sure, I suspect demand will be a lot lower than reservations, not just because of the major upward shock on prices but also because people will suspect that prices will be lower later.

It is good that they have moved to 48v and steer by wire and hopefully both of these will help to reduce costs in future Teslas and obviously V2H (if it happens and is compatible with existing powerwalls is a big step forward) but currently it looks like another model x, much to complicated and expensive to build and not being able to fit the big battery into the chassis - !!!!!!?  Rivian, GM etc can all manage this, why can't Tesla?

[Funnily enough, I did think the battery on bed could be a win if it were actually swappable giving extended range by hiring the 'range extender' only when needed and potentially allowing very quick 'charges' on a road trip!]

QrizB

michaels said:

Anyone else as underwhelmed as I am about the Cybertruck?

I'm exactly as whelmed as I expected to be, which is hardly whelmed at all.

Less whelmed than I would be to find Lidl offering 30% off short-life baked goods.

Magnitio

QrizB said:

michaels said:

Anyone else as underwhelmed as I am about the Cybertruck?

I'm exactly as whelmed as I expected to be, which is hardly whelmed at all.

Less whelmed than I would be to find Lidl offering 30% off short-life baked goods.

If it gets some people out of big V8 pickups that manage less than 15MPG, then it's a result. Not really relevant to the UK.

1961Nick

I bet all the vehicle wrapping companies are rubbing their hands in anticipation. Lots of vinyl & easy to work on.

Martyn1981

Magnitio said:

QrizB said:

michaels said:

Anyone else as underwhelmed as I am about the Cybertruck?

I'm exactly as whelmed as I expected to be, which is hardly whelmed at all.

Less whelmed than I would be to find Lidl offering 30% off short-life baked goods.

If it gets some people out of big V8 pickups that manage less than 15MPG, then it's a result. Not really relevant to the UK.

Yep, little interest for the UK and Europe. Australia and parts of Africa and Asia may be interested, but that will depend on their local pedestrian safety rules. I believe it wouldn't be legal for Europe.

I'm hoping (from a G&E angle) that this could be very important longer term. Reminds me somewhat of the brave decision by Ford to shift from the '3 box' Cortina design, to the more aerodynamic Sierra. Can't remember if they were first, but quite quickly, once the shouting died down, most vehicles shifted to the teardrop style shape and hatchback (in Europe).

Hopefully the US pick ups will become more aerodynamic, now that they don't need the large square bonnet for an engine. The Ford Lightning already has a huge frunk, so no problems sloping the hood more. Perhaps curve the roof over, as the triangular Cybertruck may not go down well with the majority. And then the big decision of side sails on the bed and a cover. But potentially, the range improvements could be big. If the range improves, then the shift to a BEV PU will become easier for many.

Another big change is that the CT has a longer bed, for a dual cab PU, as it doesn't need as long a nose (no engine again).

Of course, it's equally possible that traditionalists will remain upset at the CT shape, which I can understand, but time will tell, perhaps 2025/26.

Of course, none of this depends (I think) on the idea to shift stiffness to the exterior, and the use of thick stainless steel. But personally, I love the idea of not having to consider the issue of small scratches, dents etc to bodywork or the silly plastic 'bumpers' we now have. However, the economic benefits to a true PU user / contractor in the US would really only apply to the cheapest model the $60k RWD, and that's not planned for release till 2025 (or later).

Been watching lots of reviews and news on the truck, and all seem to suggest the same thing, the cost is higher than hoped, but competitive with the BEV competition .... BUT .... all seem to think Tesla will be taking advantage of early adopters and low production numbers, then probably drop prices a bit. If they do, then this could mean trouble for legacy auto*. But again, that largely depends on whether traditionalists come round to the shape, or not?

*Legacy auto, such as Ford, are losing money on their BEV's atm, so if Tesla can be profitable on the CT, and prices can be reduced, then things get scary fast.


Anyone know how the CT could outpull a Ford F-350 diesel in the truckpull test (318ft v's 263ft)? I assume 'winning' comes down to power and traction, and traction involves weight and gross tyre grip. The Ford is probably about 1,000lb heavier. Could it be that a battery pack distributes the weight better, for traction on all tyres? Also, could it be that the torque for the big diesel will vary with rpms and truck speed, whereas the BEV has high torque (max torque) throughout at the lower speed?

JKenH

Surprising figures from the SMMT today. Not only did BEVs lose market share year on year but volume also fell in a rising market. At the time of writing the SMMT news release was not yet out so we will have to wait and see what explanation they come up with. Meanwhile PHEVs were up 55.8%.

Edit: SMMT say BEV sales fell as last November was atypical with significant deliveries following supply chain disruptions.

BEVs accounted for 9.1% of sales to private buyers.

thevilla

That'll be the BBCs fault!  😁

JKenH

Good news for those who thought BEVs sucked in cold weather. Apparently they don’t and are better than ICE cars in winter. 

Electric Vehicles are better than gas-powered cars in winter—here’s why

Warm the cabin

In fact, BEVs outperform ICE here. Thanks to smaller grille openings and flatter underbodies (no driveshafts or tailpipes to worry about) BEV bodies tend to have lower coefficients of drag and slip through the air with less effort. Moreover, most of the complex parts in a car that require viscous fluids to do not exist in a BEV, i.e., no engine or transmission to worry about.

Furthermore, the very thing that creates the range disadvantage for BEVs also delivers a distinct advantage. Because electric motors operate so much more efficiently, there's a lot less waste heat to use to warm the cabin. As a result, you get separate electric heating elements that start working as soon as you start your car, heating either your seat or the whole cabin, or both. Ten minutes of shivering as you wait for the engine to warm up is a thing of the ICE past. And engineers continually work to utilize any waste heat available to warm the cabin and limit battery pack usage. 

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/12/electric-vehicles-are-better-than-gas-powered-cars-in-winter-heres-why/