EV Discussion thread

ABrass

Toyota has rolled back it's solid state battery plans..

https://electrek.co/2023/11/21/toyotas-long-range-solid-state-ev-batteries-limited/

While they aim to have some in production 2027-28, they won't be mass producing EVs with solid state batteries until 2030+. I'm shocked, utterly shocked.

Martyn1981

shinytop said:

Grumpy_chap said:

We discussed VW's efforts at EVs recently and I mentioned that I was not overly impressed by the iD3 or other offerings earlier in the year.
Today I received a marketing link for the iD7 which looks quite a nice car but, at £55k, it would have to be a lot better than my TM3:
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electric-and-hybrid/electric-cars/id7.html?

"Operation of the air conditioning is integrated into the first level of the infotainment system. The different functions of the new air conditioning concept are visible at all times on the large new display and can be activated and saved individually for each user. The intelligent air vents control the air flow and special requests can be activated using voice commands. If the user says “Hello Volkswagen, my hands are cold!”, the ID.7 responds by starting the steering wheel heating function. At the same time, warm air is directed towards the hands."

Why. Just why?  Who asked for a heated steering wheel?  Or voice operated heating?  These, and a whole lot of other unnecessary junk are why it costs 55 grand and weighs 2.2 tonnes. 

Even the early Leaf's had a heated steering wheel and seats. They are a really great way to minimise the heating needed in cold weather, which reduces demand on the battery and improves range. They also warm you up, almost instantly, so you get the benefit on shorter trips, and no need to pre-heat. Whereas an ICE may take longer. Our Zafira used to take about 10 mins and 4 miles for the heater matrix to reach temp for space heating, just as Wifey and I were parking in work.

shinytop

Martyn1981 said:

shinytop said:

Grumpy_chap said:

We discussed VW's efforts at EVs recently and I mentioned that I was not overly impressed by the iD3 or other offerings earlier in the year.
Today I received a marketing link for the iD7 which looks quite a nice car but, at £55k, it would have to be a lot better than my TM3:
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electric-and-hybrid/electric-cars/id7.html?

"Operation of the air conditioning is integrated into the first level of the infotainment system. The different functions of the new air conditioning concept are visible at all times on the large new display and can be activated and saved individually for each user. The intelligent air vents control the air flow and special requests can be activated using voice commands. If the user says “Hello Volkswagen, my hands are cold!”, the ID.7 responds by starting the steering wheel heating function. At the same time, warm air is directed towards the hands."

Why. Just why?  Who asked for a heated steering wheel?  Or voice operated heating?  These, and a whole lot of other unnecessary junk are why it costs 55 grand and weighs 2.2 tonnes. 

Even the early Leaf's had a heated steering wheel and seats. They are a really great way to minimise the heating needed in cold weather, which reduces demand on the battery and improves range. They also warm you up, almost instantly, so you get the benefit on shorter trips, and no need to pre-heat. Whereas an ICE may take longer. Our Zafira used to take about 10 mins and 4 miles for the heater matrix to reach temp for space heating, just as Wifey and I were parking in work.

Fair enough, it was really the voice operated stuff and the size/price I was having a rant at. I must admit I do like my heated seats on a cold morning and Mrs M uses them most of the time.

silvercar

The combination of heated seat and heated steering wheel means I use the climate control far less.

Martyn1981

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

shinytop said:

Grumpy_chap said:

We discussed VW's efforts at EVs recently and I mentioned that I was not overly impressed by the iD3 or other offerings earlier in the year.
Today I received a marketing link for the iD7 which looks quite a nice car but, at £55k, it would have to be a lot better than my TM3:
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electric-and-hybrid/electric-cars/id7.html?

"Operation of the air conditioning is integrated into the first level of the infotainment system. The different functions of the new air conditioning concept are visible at all times on the large new display and can be activated and saved individually for each user. The intelligent air vents control the air flow and special requests can be activated using voice commands. If the user says “Hello Volkswagen, my hands are cold!”, the ID.7 responds by starting the steering wheel heating function. At the same time, warm air is directed towards the hands."

Why. Just why?  Who asked for a heated steering wheel?  Or voice operated heating?  These, and a whole lot of other unnecessary junk are why it costs 55 grand and weighs 2.2 tonnes. 

Even the early Leaf's had a heated steering wheel and seats. They are a really great way to minimise the heating needed in cold weather, which reduces demand on the battery and improves range. They also warm you up, almost instantly, so you get the benefit on shorter trips, and no need to pre-heat. Whereas an ICE may take longer. Our Zafira used to take about 10 mins and 4 miles for the heater matrix to reach temp for space heating, just as Wifey and I were parking in work.

Fair enough, it was really the voice operated stuff and the size/price I was having a rant at. I must admit I do like my heated seats on a cold morning and Mrs M uses them most of the time.

Tesla's seats can now be intelligent, but I always forget it's 'mothering' me. So shortly into a drive, before the cabin has warmed up, the seat gets warm, and I wonder if I've pee'd myself!

Back when we first got the 2014 24kWh Leaf, about a week into ownership, I decided to risk a Nov drive of just under 60 miles, against the estimated 70 miles of normal range. Drove the whole way at about 65mph, though I later found out it overstates massively, so probably 60 or less. Also left the heating off, thick coat and warmed my bum and hands. Problem was, the car was a bit damp (turned out there was water in the bottom of the boot). So the car kept slowly steaming up. Great experience and learning curve, but not fun. Arrived with 12 miles to spare.

Return journey I risked heating and 70mph (probably 63(ish)), and got home with about 5 miles to spare, and a whole host of alarm/warning lights lit up. The range also kept updating based on current driving - not great when travelling along the M4 between Cardiff and Swansea, as stretches are like a rollercoaster. So I'd be pulling uphill, with est range falling short of home, then downhill, with range telling me 'easy peasy mate'.


Many of the features/gadgets such as heatpumps, are to counter range problems with BEV's. Even the shape of the front lights on the Leaf (similar on the early TM3's) that protrude slightly above the bonnet, are to better direct airflow.

Reed_Richards

My OH hates heated seats, says it feels like you've wet yourself.

1961Nick

shinytop said:

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

"Operation of the air conditioning is integrated into the first level of the infotainment system. The different functions of the new air conditioning concept are visible at all times on the large new display and can be activated and saved individually for each user. The intelligent air vents control the air flow and special requests can be activated using voice commands. If the user says “Hello Volkswagen, my hands are cold!”, the ID.7 responds by starting the steering wheel heating function. At the same time, warm air is directed towards the hands."

Why. Just why?  Who asked for a heated steering wheel?  Or voice operated heating?  These, and a whole lot of other unnecessary junk are why it costs 55 grand and weighs 2.2 tonnes. 

I am not sure that those features you mention are massively different to my TM3 which does have heated steering wheel (superb) and voice operated heating (gimmick).  I am not sure whether the user configuration includes direction of the air vents, but it does do the steering wheel and seat position.

So, why does the VW cost so much please compared to my TM3?

Isn't it a different class, i.e. bigger? Like comparing a 3 series to a 5?

The ID7 is about 8" longer than the Model 3 & it'll be interesting to see how much of that translates into cabin space. The big difference is weight with the ID7 being 400kg heavier.

The combined front & rear legroom for a model 3 is 77.9" which is exactly the same as a 5 series. I can't find the spec for the ID7 other than 'palatial in the rear'.

Martyn1981

1961Nick said:

shinytop said:

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

"Operation of the air conditioning is integrated into the first level of the infotainment system. The different functions of the new air conditioning concept are visible at all times on the large new display and can be activated and saved individually for each user. The intelligent air vents control the air flow and special requests can be activated using voice commands. If the user says “Hello Volkswagen, my hands are cold!”, the ID.7 responds by starting the steering wheel heating function. At the same time, warm air is directed towards the hands."

Why. Just why?  Who asked for a heated steering wheel?  Or voice operated heating?  These, and a whole lot of other unnecessary junk are why it costs 55 grand and weighs 2.2 tonnes. 

I am not sure that those features you mention are massively different to my TM3 which does have heated steering wheel (superb) and voice operated heating (gimmick).  I am not sure whether the user configuration includes direction of the air vents, but it does do the steering wheel and seat position.

So, why does the VW cost so much please compared to my TM3?

Isn't it a different class, i.e. bigger? Like comparing a 3 series to a 5?

The ID7 is about 8" longer than the Model 3 & it'll be interesting to see how much of that translates into cabin space. The big difference is weight with the ID7 being 400kg heavier.

The combined front & rear legroom for a model 3 is 77.9" which is exactly the same as a 5 series. I can't find the spec for the ID7 other than 'palatial in the rear'.

I don't think enough is said about the weight (weight advantage) of the Model 3. At around 1,750kg to 1,850kg, for standard to long range models, they come in close to the weight of the base price BMW model 3 of 1,670kg. The MG4 weighs about the same as the TM3, but is slightly smaller.

Hopefully as battery density continues to improve this decade, we may see ~100kg of weight lost from the battery packs of the longer range BEV's. This should also have a small positive feedback into efficiency and range.

Not exactly sure what to compare the TMY too, but with standard to long range weighing in at around 1,900kg to 2,000kg, then BMW need to lose some weight on the IX4 which is ~2,440kg, and even the ICE X3 is ~1,900kg to 2,100kg.

shinytop

Martyn1981 said:

1961Nick said:

shinytop said:

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

"Operation of the air conditioning is integrated into the first level of the infotainment system. The different functions of the new air conditioning concept are visible at all times on the large new display and can be activated and saved individually for each user. The intelligent air vents control the air flow and special requests can be activated using voice commands. If the user says “Hello Volkswagen, my hands are cold!”, the ID.7 responds by starting the steering wheel heating function. At the same time, warm air is directed towards the hands."

Why. Just why?  Who asked for a heated steering wheel?  Or voice operated heating?  These, and a whole lot of other unnecessary junk are why it costs 55 grand and weighs 2.2 tonnes. 

I am not sure that those features you mention are massively different to my TM3 which does have heated steering wheel (superb) and voice operated heating (gimmick).  I am not sure whether the user configuration includes direction of the air vents, but it does do the steering wheel and seat position.

So, why does the VW cost so much please compared to my TM3?

Isn't it a different class, i.e. bigger? Like comparing a 3 series to a 5?

The ID7 is about 8" longer than the Model 3 & it'll be interesting to see how much of that translates into cabin space. The big difference is weight with the ID7 being 400kg heavier.

The combined front & rear legroom for a model 3 is 77.9" which is exactly the same as a 5 series. I can't find the spec for the ID7 other than 'palatial in the rear'.

I don't think enough is said about the weight (weight advantage) of the Model 3. At around 1,750kg to 1,850kg, for standard to long range models, they come in close to the weight of the base price BMW model 3 of 1,670kg. The MG4 weighs about the same as the TM3, but is slightly smaller.

Hopefully as battery density continues to improve this decade, we may see ~100kg of weight lost from the battery packs of the longer range BEV's. This should also have a small positive feedback into efficiency and range.

Not exactly sure what to compare the TMY too, but with standard to long range weighing in at around 1,900kg to 2,000kg, then BMW need to lose some weight on the IX4 which is ~2,440kg, and even the ICE X3 is ~1,900kg to 2,100kg.

I think more should be said.  I'm sure it contributes to its (I think?) better miles per kWh than the competition.  

Martyn1981

I'm looking forward (2025(ish)?) to the specs of the Tesla model 2. I'm hoping that scaling down the size a bit, technology improvements (for all) in batts, and a smaller batt, perhaps 45-50kWh, will make it 200kg+ lighter than the 3. But no idea yet, as to when it'll reach production.

The Zoe was pretty good at 1,500kg to 1,600kg, and the Chinese are lighter than most legacy auto BEV's .... I think?

Based on the impressive figures that CW and GC have managed (not me) from their 3's, a lighter weight, smaller TM2 might manage closer to a 5miles/kWh average in the right hands. Our IONIQ 28kWh is still averaging about 4.7m/kWh, and delivering 140+ miles if driven gently.