EV Discussion thread

silvercar

michaels said:

I have a recall on my nissan leaf: Nissan has identified a concern affecting the Vehicle Control Module (VCM) software logic following routine internal testing.  In specific and rare circumstances, after switching off cruise control and then within a certain timeframe changing the drive mode whilst quickly applying the throttle there is a possibility of temporary unintended acceleration.

So not out with possibility that there was a software error.

Plus there is software between the brake pedal and the braking power applied as lower levels of braking are intercepted and regen is applied, when the battery is 100% more brake travel is needed to get retardation so there is not simply a direct link from the brake pedal to the brakes anymore.

I think on the leaf there is a way to put the transmission into N whilst in motion but I never use it so would not know how to do it off the top of my head despite 9 years of ownership and 80k miles driven.

Agree the driver probably could have achieved a stop by stomping hard enough on the brake pedal (until the fluid boiled anyway) but if the car was determined to try to maintain 30mph that sounds pretty difficult, no idea if there is a mechanically operated handbrake on a ZS or simply an electronic switch that no doubt can not be engaged if the vehicle is in motion.  There is also probably like on the leaf a way to select neutral but the driver likely wouldn't know how to and it would also no doubt involve electronics which might not be active if there were some major ECU failure,  Thee is obviously no way to 'stall out' the engine and I suspect no way top switch off the car whilst in option (as this would be dangerous).

So not impossible with enough ECU fails for the only way to stop the vehicle being unassisted breaking vs a 173bhp motor.

Book this in fairly easily with any Nissan dealer, takes about an hour. If you have e-pedal on by default, you need to go back into the settings and set it as a default again (the settings controlled by the steering wheel and visible on the screen in front, not the setting on the tablet in the centre console).

JKenH

September new car market grows but motorist support needed to reverse falling private consumer EV demand

The September registration figures are out. 

BEV volume increases were driven entirely by fleet purchases, which rose by 50.6% as buyers were drawn to the advanced technology, outstanding performance, reduced environmental impact and compelling tax incentives. Conversely, private BEV registrations fell -14.3% with less than one in 10 private new car buyers opting for electric during the month. Such a decline underlines the importance of providing these motorists with purchase incentives and other mechanisms to stimulate demand.

Mike Hawes of the SMMT is always quite bullish about EVs and this month suggests the continued rise in fleet purchases (in addition to tax incentives) was down to buyers being “drawn to the advanced technology, outstanding performance, reduced environmental impact” of EVs. It seems private buyers don’t seem to value theses benefits requiring “purchase incentives and other mechanisms to stimulate demand.” 

The bottom line is that with fleet sales increasingly being electric and private sales falling 14% to less than 10% it is the tax advantages, pure and simple, that drive the majority of EV sales. While we only see it in the UK where there are no incentives for private EV buyers it is probably true across all markets that underlying demand from private motorists is still very low. I was expecting with the expansion of ULEZ we would have seen a massive expansion in EV sales but year on year, EV sales as a percentage was actually down. Given the massive expansion of fleet EV sales private EV sales must be significantly down year in year. 

Why is this fall in private demand for EVs happening? The plug in grant disappeared years ago - would bringing it back really stoke demand? The problem is more fundamental. 

Also surprisingly Tesla sales fell by 35% year on year with the model Y dropping out of the top ten for the month.

Edited as I misread the % figure for fleets as being 50% when that was the increase. 

Netexporter

Why is this fall in private demand for EVs happening?

More private buyers going for secondhand, now there is a plentiful supply?

JKenH

Netexporter said:

Why is this fall in private demand for EVs happening?

More private buyers going for secondhand, now there is a plentiful supply?

That does make sense. 4years ago there was little choice of EVs secondhand - Tesla, I-Pace, Leaf or Zoe. Having bought new in 2020, in all probability my next EV will be secondhand. 

silvercar

The people who are most effected by ulez are running relatively old cars, their upgrade isn’t likely to be new.

Netexporter

JKenH said:

Netexporter said:

Why is this fall in private demand for EVs happening?

More private buyers going for secondhand, now there is a plentiful supply?

That does make sense. 4years ago there was little choice of EVs secondhand - Tesla, I-Pace, Leaf or Zoe. Having bought new in 2020, in all probability my next EV will be secondhand. 

There were well over 100,000 used EVs on Autotrader, when I looked the other week. Heavy on Zoes and Leaves, at the bottom end, but  plenty of choice in the £10-20k range to suit many people.

I saved about £10k on list price for an 18 month old car. Higher than average mileage but as mine is well below average, it will even out. I had well over 5 years of warranty left and I'm not likely to exceed the mileage before the warranty times out.

michaels

JKenH said:

September new car market grows but motorist support needed to reverse falling private consumer EV demand

The September registration figures are out. 

BEV volume increases were driven entirely by fleet purchases, which rose by 50.6% as buyers were drawn to the advanced technology, outstanding performance, reduced environmental impact and compelling tax incentives. Conversely, private BEV registrations fell -14.3% with less than one in 10 private new car buyers opting for electric during the month. Such a decline underlines the importance of providing these motorists with purchase incentives and other mechanisms to stimulate demand.

Mike Hawes of the SMMT is always quite bullish about EVs and this month suggests the continued rise in fleet purchases (in addition to tax incentives) was down to buyers being “drawn to the advanced technology, outstanding performance, reduced environmental impact” of EVs. It seems private buyers don’t seem to value theses benefits requiring “purchase incentives and other mechanisms to stimulate demand.” 

The bottom line is that with fleet sales increasingly being electric and private sales falling 14% to less than 10% it is the tax advantages, pure and simple, that drive the majority of EV sales. While we only see it in the UK where there are no incentives for private EV buyers it is probably true across all markets that underlying demand from private motorists is still very low. I was expecting with the expansion of ULEZ we would have seen a massive expansion in EV sales but year on year, EV sales as a percentage was actually down. Given the massive expansion of fleet EV sales private EV sales must be significantly down year in year. 

Why is this fall in private demand for EVs happening? The plug in grant disappeared years ago - would bringing it back really stoke demand? The problem is more fundamental. 

Also surprisingly Tesla sales fell by 35% year on year with the model Y dropping out of the top ten for the month.

Edited as I misread the % figure for fleets as being 50% when that was the increase. 

I think we have already discussed how the fleet incentives artificially inflate the new price of EVs and thus leads to large depreciation which makes them (new) a very bad choice for private buyers in terms of residuals.

WE also seem to be seeing much lower prices in the US for Model Y (from 44k usd) so I wonder if another price cut is on the cards in the UK

JKenH

Netexporter said:

Why is this fall in private demand for EVs happening?

More private buyers going for secondhand, now there is a plentiful supply?

Substantial growth in used EV demand being reported.

Used prices fall for first time in 41 months

Meanwhile, second-hand electric prices also show signs of stabilising. After 13 consecutive months of contraction, prices were flat in September at £32,142. This growing stability is due to rocketing consumer demand, which was up 86.7% last month, marking the first time since July 2022 it has been ahead of supply growth (up 56.8%).

https://www.bodyshopmag.com/2023/news/used-prices-fall-for-first-time-in-41-months/

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

The brakes are hydraulic & not fly by wire so enough pedal pressure would stop a 200bhp vehicle even without servo assistance.

But how much is enough? 

In theory brakes will work if the brake servo fails (electric rather than vacuum on EVs) but it isn’t the same as driving a non servo’d car like we all probably have done in the past. Because of the servo assistance the brake pedal has a shorter lever than a non servo car so (probably 50% or so) more pedal pressure will be required to stop the car than with a non servo car. The other thing to bear in mind is that the modern cars we drive are probably twice the weight of the ones we drove in our youth with non servo brakes. EVS are heavy and without a brake servo will be very difficult to stop. We forget just how bad non servo’d brakes were. 

This wasn’t a sudden incident where the driver hit the wrong pedal - it reportedly went on for some 15 minutes. If the cruise control had jammed on (or for whatever other reason the car was trying to maintain a constant speed) then as the driver brakes the motor will presumably provide more torque to overcome the retardation the brakes are trying to apply. Continued application of the brakes in this situation will cause them to overheat and boil the brake fluid. (This happens frequently if you take a car with standard brake fluid on a race track and drive it hard.)  Once the fluid boils application of the brake pedal simply compresses the vapour in the brake lines and produces little or no retardation. You can get some stopping power by pumping the brake pedal but if you haven’t experienced it you might not think to do that.

I still don’t know quite what to make of it. I think the general trend is to discredit the story for whatever purpose. Several reasons have been given why the story might be untrue. I don’t know if or why the car genuinely refused to slow down but wanted to give one possible explanation why the driver, in that situatio, could have become a passenger unable to bring the car to a halt. 

I agree that if the driver didn't use the brakes firmly to bring the car to halt quickly the brakes would overheat - both discs & fluid. The electrics seemed to be ok as there's no mention of the electrically assisted steering being compromised, so it's unlikely the brake servo had failed. 

noitsnotme

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

The brakes are hydraulic & not fly by wire so enough pedal pressure would stop a 200bhp vehicle even without servo assistance.

But how much is enough? 

In theory brakes will work if the brake servo fails (electric rather than vacuum on EVs) but it isn’t the same as driving a non servo’d car like we all probably have done in the past. Because of the servo assistance the brake pedal has a shorter lever than a non servo car so (probably 50% or so) more pedal pressure will be required to stop the car than with a non servo car. The other thing to bear in mind is that the modern cars we drive are probably twice the weight of the ones we drove in our youth with non servo brakes. EVS are heavy and without a brake servo will be very difficult to stop. We forget just how bad non servo’d brakes were. 

This wasn’t a sudden incident where the driver hit the wrong pedal - it reportedly went on for some 15 minutes. If the cruise control had jammed on (or for whatever other reason the car was trying to maintain a constant speed) then as the driver brakes the motor will presumably provide more torque to overcome the retardation the brakes are trying to apply. Continued application of the brakes in this situation will cause them to overheat and boil the brake fluid. (This happens frequently if you take a car with standard brake fluid on a race track and drive it hard.)  Once the fluid boils application of the brake pedal simply compresses the vapour in the brake lines and produces little or no retardation. You can get some stopping power by pumping the brake pedal but if you haven’t experienced it you might not think to do that.

I still don’t know quite what to make of it. I think the general trend is to discredit the story for whatever purpose. Several reasons have been given why the story might be untrue. I don’t know if or why the car genuinely refused to slow down but wanted to give one possible explanation why the driver, in that situatio, could have become a passenger unable to bring the car to a halt. 

I agree that if the driver didn't use the brakes firmly to bring the car to halt quickly the brakes would overheat - both discs & fluid. The electrics seemed to be ok as there's no mention of the electrically assisted steering being compromised, so it's unlikely the brake servo had failed. 

On the MG forum they’re saying the ZS is notorious for using brakes instead of regen with the Active Cruise Control.  They’re questioning how the car managed to slow to 15mph at the roundabout if the brakes had failed.