EV Discussion thread

thevilla

Netexporter said:

thevilla said:

Netexporter said:

People who regularly use public chargers have subscriptions to networks that give them a substantial discount..

And restrict their choice and flexibility to charge where they need rather than where the price is right.  Would an ICE driver stand for it?

No ICE driver in their right mind would buy fuel at a motorway services. There's usually a supermarket close to a motorway junction.

Also, I the prices quoted look like peak time. There are often 3 TOU rates for chargers.

Like everything else in life, the disorganised pay the highest prices, as is amply illustrated on the energy threads here.

There are, as far as I'm aware, no subscriptions to motorway petrol services so everyone pays the same. ( barring fuel card users).

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Edit - Just a thought, but I was recently watching some discussions on a US business site about BEV's. One comment was interesting, pointing out, that for now, every extra car Tesla sells is extra revenue and profit. But on average, every BEV legacy sell, will displace an ICE sale. Legacy probably make a loss on the BEV, and also lose the profit they would have made on the ICEV. Ouch!

But currently the profit on every ICE car sold helps cover the development cost of the next EV. Toyota’s net income is something like $20bn per annum and after the savage price cutting in the EV market it currently has a higher operating margin than Tesla. Who is going to have the money to develop the next generation of EVs? Tesla has until recently been operating in a niche market with industry leading margins. Now that EVs are mainstream, margins are reducing and that is hitting Tesla hard. 

Tesla have so far managed to compensate for their reduced margin by increasing volume. Continual improvements to the manufacturing process has also resulted in some of the retail price reductions being effectively free. I wouldn't be surprised if the manufacturing cost of the Highland refresh is significantly below that of the outgoing model especially for cars built in Fremont.

The flip side is that legacy auto is absorbing 100% of EV price reductions on it's bottom line. The only way out of this mess for VW is to make a £25000 ID3 or £20000 ID2 that at least breaks even. That volume would allow their supply chain to remain intact & grow with the transition to electric. Reducing output of the ID3 will damage the supply chain & make it harder to secure long term contracts for components... especially batteries & battery raw materials.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Netexporter said:

People who regularly use public chargers have subscriptions to networks that give them a substantial discount..

Fair comment but which network do you choose - the cheapest or the one with most chargers or the one with the nearest charger to your home?

I thought I would have a quick look at what is available. This isn’t exhaustive but they are the ones I could easily find. These would work if you can regularly charge on the same network but if you travel around a lot then you may end up using chargers on other networks at higher cost. Driving 8000 miles per year at 3.2mpk (after losses) is 2500 kWh or around 50 charges at 50kWh/time or around 4 charges/month. The cheapest (Fastned) then works out over a year at £1200 plus £120 subscription = 53p/kWh. If you typically charge 3 times a month at your Fastned charger and once, say, at Ionity at 74p then the cost averages out at 59.5p/kWh (£37 + £72 + £10 = £119/200kWh). That’s 18.6p/mile. 

BP Pulse £7.85/month 

Fastned

£9.99/ month and 48p/kWh

Ionity

£10.99/month and 56p/kWh

Tesla prices close to me..

JKenH

This is my nearest rapid charger.😂

Reed_Richards

Move to Scotland maybe?  ChargePlace Scotland seem to have some of the cheapest rates for EV charging,

JKenH

Motorway service stations hiring staff to police surging levels of EV ‘charge rage’

Moto chief executive Ken McMeikan warned the UK’s motorway service stations are facing growing “public disorder” due to a lack of grid connections preventing him from installing enough car chargers to meet the surge in demand.

Moto, which runs 49 motorway services around the UK, has already introduced marshalls at Exeter, Rugby and Wetherby to manage EV queues and prevent conflicts during busy periods.

Mr McMeikan, 58, who drives an EV himself, said he had told the government of the problem and warned ministers that public disorder incidents would grow.

He told The Telegraph: “I’ve been saying to them that the grid does not have sufficient capacity right now to deliver the power we need at the time we need it.

“If we don’t get that amount of power guaranteed, then in coming years every Christmas, every Easter, every summer holiday and peak bank holiday will be the equivalent of when we have a fuel crisis on petrol and diesel.”

The chief executive of Gridserve, one of Britain’s biggest electric car charging companies, told The Telegraph earlier this month that delays had forced his business to rely on batteries and generators to power up vehicles.

Mr McMeikan said: “You’ll see queues of people and public disorder because there wasn’t enough power delivered to motorway service areas… to allow people to charge their car and then continue their journey.

“There is a view in government that, rather than provide the power to guarantee sufficient numbers of chargers, we should be thinking about how we manage queues.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/09/30/ev-power-point-shortage-driver-disputes-motorway-services/

Netexporter

And yet I've heard people positively praise the management system at Exeter.

JKenH

Netexporter said:

And yet I've heard people positively praise the management system at Exeter.

The Marshalls are doing a good job then.

Netexporter

Apparently.

Is it really any different to the person who hovers at the supermarket to help out with problems in the self-service check-outs?

JKenH

Even the Guardian are EV bashing now. Confused.com found on average it costs 13% more to insure a EV. Which is a rise of 72% compared to 29% for petrol and diesel - so last year EVs were cheaper to insure - £557 vs £656. When I had a Leaf my insurance was similar to my Golf - around £200. I did an exercise a year or so ago and found that insuring a Tesla Model 3 and a BMW M3 would cost similar amounts - somewhere in the £500 region IIRC.

What are other EV owners finding?

For comparison I have just renewed the insurance for my petrol Golf at £235.

‘The quotes were £5,000 or more’: electric vehicle owners face soaring insurance costs

In the Facebook group, members share stories of horror renewal quotes, with increases ranging from 60% (up to £1,100) to a staggering 940% (a jump from £447 to £4,661, according to a screengrab shared by one driver).

Its figures, derived from quotes, show that insurance premiums for electric vehicles are 72% – or £402 – higher than this time last year, at a typical £959. Meanwhile, for petrol and diesel car drivers, the increase is 29%, or £192, taking the figure to £848.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs