EV Discussion thread

shinytop

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

A BEV Rx does the same job, and seems like a good idea (to me), and a great introduction for those a bit scared of a BEV, but wanting more than a PHEV.

All Nissan have done, is remove your ability to fuel it with leccy. Seems like a weird backwards move to me, since it offers less choice, not more.

That said, maybe Nissan have a good reason. Perhaps the cost of the charger, inverter etc etc, gives them a large enough cost saving.

They do a Qashqai, one of the best selling cars in the UK.  In your brain imagine someone walking into a dealership who would otherwise have purchased a petrol (or previously diesel) Qashqai and instead buys one of these as it is a similar price not 10-20k more for the same size Ariya.

Yes we would prefer they got a BEV or possibly a PHEV (we know a lot of these are never run on electric) but for people who were never going to go for either of those options then this is (imho) better than them simply buying the petrol version especially for local pollution/fuel efficiency with the welcome side benefit that it is more likely to make them consider BEV next time.

I'm a bit lost on your point. Going back to Shinytop's point, as I read it, the question was whether the added complexity negates the fuel gains from running the ICE at it's most efficient. I suspect he's right. He might not be, but it's a valid point. [Edit - Further supporting Shinytop's point, is that the e-power Qashqai appears to weigh 200kg (~14%) more than the 'normal' petrol car.]

So what exactly is this vehicle? Well to me, it's a 'normal' BEV RX, just with the option to plug it in removed. I don't understand why that would appeal to more people, it seems to offer less choice, since the plug-in part doesn't need to be used if you don't want to.

Maybe I'm missing something, and not understanding your point, but you say they may get a BEV next time, but Shirley this is a BEV, a BEV Rx, just (as I said previously) with the plug-in ability removed. Think about it, it's a BEV that can only charge via it's own petrol generator. So less choice, not more?


Edit - Just checked the prices, and it looks like the Qashqai e-power starts at £34k (base Qashqai petrol starts at £27k), whilst the Ariya starts at £39.6k. So a significant price difference, I agree, but not the £10k to £20k you suggest.

But again, I'm not really concerned about petrol 'v's BEV, I'm somewhat baffled as to why anyone would build a BEV Rx, but exclude the ability to plug-in.

I think another difference is that with the RX cars I have read about (like the BMW i3), the RX option was a bit of a 'get you home' thing; the i3's RX is a 34PS twin cylinder derived from a scooter. This Nissan is different because it's permanently in ICE to EV mode so it has a 158PS 3 cylinder engine.  The Nissan's emissions are c.120 g/km (manufacturer number) and gets about 45mpg (from a magazine test) so the same as a petrol car.   Its battery is only 2.1kWh.  Thinking about it, it's really just a petrol car with a different final transmission.   

QrizB

Thinking about it, it's really just a petrol car with a different final transmission.

Or a diesel-electric locomotive.

Martyn1981

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

A BEV Rx does the same job, and seems like a good idea (to me), and a great introduction for those a bit scared of a BEV, but wanting more than a PHEV.

All Nissan have done, is remove your ability to fuel it with leccy. Seems like a weird backwards move to me, since it offers less choice, not more.

That said, maybe Nissan have a good reason. Perhaps the cost of the charger, inverter etc etc, gives them a large enough cost saving.

They do a Qashqai, one of the best selling cars in the UK.  In your brain imagine someone walking into a dealership who would otherwise have purchased a petrol (or previously diesel) Qashqai and instead buys one of these as it is a similar price not 10-20k more for the same size Ariya.

Yes we would prefer they got a BEV or possibly a PHEV (we know a lot of these are never run on electric) but for people who were never going to go for either of those options then this is (imho) better than them simply buying the petrol version especially for local pollution/fuel efficiency with the welcome side benefit that it is more likely to make them consider BEV next time.

I'm a bit lost on your point. Going back to Shinytop's point, as I read it, the question was whether the added complexity negates the fuel gains from running the ICE at it's most efficient. I suspect he's right. He might not be, but it's a valid point. [Edit - Further supporting Shinytop's point, is that the e-power Qashqai appears to weigh 200kg (~14%) more than the 'normal' petrol car.]

So what exactly is this vehicle? Well to me, it's a 'normal' BEV RX, just with the option to plug it in removed. I don't understand why that would appeal to more people, it seems to offer less choice, since the plug-in part doesn't need to be used if you don't want to.

Maybe I'm missing something, and not understanding your point, but you say they may get a BEV next time, but Shirley this is a BEV, a BEV Rx, just (as I said previously) with the plug-in ability removed. Think about it, it's a BEV that can only charge via it's own petrol generator. So less choice, not more?


Edit - Just checked the prices, and it looks like the Qashqai e-power starts at £34k (base Qashqai petrol starts at £27k), whilst the Ariya starts at £39.6k. So a significant price difference, I agree, but not the £10k to £20k you suggest.

But again, I'm not really concerned about petrol 'v's BEV, I'm somewhat baffled as to why anyone would build a BEV Rx, but exclude the ability to plug-in.

I think another difference is that with the RX cars I have read about (like the BMW i3), the RX option was a bit of a 'get you home' thing; the i3's RX is a 34PS twin cylinder derived from a scooter. This Nissan is different because it's permanently in ICE to EV mode so it has a 158PS 3 cylinder engine.  The Nissan's emissions are c.120 g/km (manufacturer number) and gets about 45mpg (from a magazine test) so the same as a petrol car.   Its battery is only 2.1kWh.  Thinking about it, it's really just a petrol car with a different final transmission.   

Yep, and kinda ironic that the Qashqai e-power has a larger displacement engine than the petrol only cars. So built for that torque peak (like the diesel-electric loco example QrizB gives).

It seems to have roughly the same engine spec (1.5lt 3cyl) as the London Taxi's have, but without the larger batt (and ~80 miles of electric range), and the ability to plug in.

The mpg efficiency win, I assume, would come from having a batt, even a small one, allowing for re-gen. 

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

A BEV Rx does the same job, and seems like a good idea (to me), and a great introduction for those a bit scared of a BEV, but wanting more than a PHEV.

All Nissan have done, is remove your ability to fuel it with leccy. Seems like a weird backwards move to me, since it offers less choice, not more.

That said, maybe Nissan have a good reason. Perhaps the cost of the charger, inverter etc etc, gives them a large enough cost saving.

They do a Qashqai, one of the best selling cars in the UK.  In your brain imagine someone walking into a dealership who would otherwise have purchased a petrol (or previously diesel) Qashqai and instead buys one of these as it is a similar price not 10-20k more for the same size Ariya.

Yes we would prefer they got a BEV or possibly a PHEV (we know a lot of these are never run on electric) but for people who were never going to go for either of those options then this is (imho) better than them simply buying the petrol version especially for local pollution/fuel efficiency with the welcome side benefit that it is more likely to make them consider BEV next time.

I'm a bit lost on your point. Going back to Shinytop's point, as I read it, the question was whether the added complexity negates the fuel gains from running the ICE at it's most efficient. I suspect he's right. He might not be, but it's a valid point. [Edit - Further supporting Shinytop's point, is that the e-power Qashqai appears to weigh 200kg (~14%) more than the 'normal' petrol car.]

So what exactly is this vehicle? Well to me, it's a 'normal' BEV RX, just with the option to plug it in removed. I don't understand why that would appeal to more people, it seems to offer less choice, since the plug-in part doesn't need to be used if you don't want to.

Maybe I'm missing something, and not understanding your point, but you say they may get a BEV next time, but Shirley this is a BEV, a BEV Rx, just (as I said previously) with the plug-in ability removed. Think about it, it's a BEV that can only charge via it's own petrol generator. So less choice, not more?


Edit - Just checked the prices, and it looks like the Qashqai e-power starts at £34k (base Qashqai petrol starts at £27k), whilst the Ariya starts at £39.6k. So a significant price difference, I agree, but not the £10k to £20k you suggest.

But again, I'm not really concerned about petrol 'v's BEV, I'm somewhat baffled as to why anyone would build a BEV Rx, but exclude the ability to plug-in.

I think another difference is that with the RX cars I have read about (like the BMW i3), the RX option was a bit of a 'get you home' thing; the i3's RX is a 34PS twin cylinder derived from a scooter. This Nissan is different because it's permanently in ICE to EV mode so it has a 158PS 3 cylinder engine.  The Nissan's emissions are c.120 g/km (manufacturer number) and gets about 45mpg (from a magazine test) so the same as a petrol car.   Its battery is only 2.1kWh.  Thinking about it, it's really just a petrol car with a different final transmission.   

Yep, and kinda ironic that the Qashqai e-power has a larger displacement engine than the petrol only cars. So built for that torque peak (like the diesel-electric loco example QrizB gives).

It seems to have roughly the same engine spec (1.5lt 3cyl) as the London Taxi's have, but without the larger batt (and ~80 miles of electric range), and the ability to plug in.

The mpg efficiency win, I assume, would come from having a batt, even a small one, allowing for re-gen. 

Yes re regen which means it is only really an efficiency win around town.  Motorway driving it does an appalling 29mpg.  But it is an alternative to a (non-plugin) Prius not an EV so what matters is whether it is better than ice or mild hybrid.  We know phevs only make sense if they are used on battery to any extent and afaik they often are not.  For example unless you have off-street parking with easy plug opportunity you would probably just drive your phev on ice given the hassle/cost of away from home charging.

Martyn1981

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

A BEV Rx does the same job, and seems like a good idea (to me), and a great introduction for those a bit scared of a BEV, but wanting more than a PHEV.

All Nissan have done, is remove your ability to fuel it with leccy. Seems like a weird backwards move to me, since it offers less choice, not more.

That said, maybe Nissan have a good reason. Perhaps the cost of the charger, inverter etc etc, gives them a large enough cost saving.

They do a Qashqai, one of the best selling cars in the UK.  In your brain imagine someone walking into a dealership who would otherwise have purchased a petrol (or previously diesel) Qashqai and instead buys one of these as it is a similar price not 10-20k more for the same size Ariya.

Yes we would prefer they got a BEV or possibly a PHEV (we know a lot of these are never run on electric) but for people who were never going to go for either of those options then this is (imho) better than them simply buying the petrol version especially for local pollution/fuel efficiency with the welcome side benefit that it is more likely to make them consider BEV next time.

I'm a bit lost on your point. Going back to Shinytop's point, as I read it, the question was whether the added complexity negates the fuel gains from running the ICE at it's most efficient. I suspect he's right. He might not be, but it's a valid point. [Edit - Further supporting Shinytop's point, is that the e-power Qashqai appears to weigh 200kg (~14%) more than the 'normal' petrol car.]

So what exactly is this vehicle? Well to me, it's a 'normal' BEV RX, just with the option to plug it in removed. I don't understand why that would appeal to more people, it seems to offer less choice, since the plug-in part doesn't need to be used if you don't want to.

Maybe I'm missing something, and not understanding your point, but you say they may get a BEV next time, but Shirley this is a BEV, a BEV Rx, just (as I said previously) with the plug-in ability removed. Think about it, it's a BEV that can only charge via it's own petrol generator. So less choice, not more?


Edit - Just checked the prices, and it looks like the Qashqai e-power starts at £34k (base Qashqai petrol starts at £27k), whilst the Ariya starts at £39.6k. So a significant price difference, I agree, but not the £10k to £20k you suggest.

But again, I'm not really concerned about petrol 'v's BEV, I'm somewhat baffled as to why anyone would build a BEV Rx, but exclude the ability to plug-in.

I think another difference is that with the RX cars I have read about (like the BMW i3), the RX option was a bit of a 'get you home' thing; the i3's RX is a 34PS twin cylinder derived from a scooter. This Nissan is different because it's permanently in ICE to EV mode so it has a 158PS 3 cylinder engine.  The Nissan's emissions are c.120 g/km (manufacturer number) and gets about 45mpg (from a magazine test) so the same as a petrol car.   Its battery is only 2.1kWh.  Thinking about it, it's really just a petrol car with a different final transmission.   

Yep, and kinda ironic that the Qashqai e-power has a larger displacement engine than the petrol only cars. So built for that torque peak (like the diesel-electric loco example QrizB gives).

It seems to have roughly the same engine spec (1.5lt 3cyl) as the London Taxi's have, but without the larger batt (and ~80 miles of electric range), and the ability to plug in.

The mpg efficiency win, I assume, would come from having a batt, even a small one, allowing for re-gen. 

Yes re regen which means it is only really an efficiency win around town.  Motorway driving it does an appalling 29mpg.  But it is an alternative to a (non-plugin) Prius not an EV so what matters is whether it is better than ice or mild hybrid.  We know phevs only make sense if they are used on battery to any extent and afaik they often are not.  For example unless you have off-street parking with easy plug opportunity you would probably just drive your phev on ice given the hassle/cost of away from home charging.

Yes, I think you've described my thinking there - The best that these e-power's can achieve, is equal to the worst that a PHEV will. But the good news, is that the PHEV can achieve more, whether that's in the hands of the first, second or subsequent owner.

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

michaels said:

Martyn1981 said:

A BEV Rx does the same job, and seems like a good idea (to me), and a great introduction for those a bit scared of a BEV, but wanting more than a PHEV.

All Nissan have done, is remove your ability to fuel it with leccy. Seems like a weird backwards move to me, since it offers less choice, not more.

That said, maybe Nissan have a good reason. Perhaps the cost of the charger, inverter etc etc, gives them a large enough cost saving.

They do a Qashqai, one of the best selling cars in the UK.  In your brain imagine someone walking into a dealership who would otherwise have purchased a petrol (or previously diesel) Qashqai and instead buys one of these as it is a similar price not 10-20k more for the same size Ariya.

Yes we would prefer they got a BEV or possibly a PHEV (we know a lot of these are never run on electric) but for people who were never going to go for either of those options then this is (imho) better than them simply buying the petrol version especially for local pollution/fuel efficiency with the welcome side benefit that it is more likely to make them consider BEV next time.

I'm a bit lost on your point. Going back to Shinytop's point, as I read it, the question was whether the added complexity negates the fuel gains from running the ICE at it's most efficient. I suspect he's right. He might not be, but it's a valid point. [Edit - Further supporting Shinytop's point, is that the e-power Qashqai appears to weigh 200kg (~14%) more than the 'normal' petrol car.]

So what exactly is this vehicle? Well to me, it's a 'normal' BEV RX, just with the option to plug it in removed. I don't understand why that would appeal to more people, it seems to offer less choice, since the plug-in part doesn't need to be used if you don't want to.

Maybe I'm missing something, and not understanding your point, but you say they may get a BEV next time, but Shirley this is a BEV, a BEV Rx, just (as I said previously) with the plug-in ability removed. Think about it, it's a BEV that can only charge via it's own petrol generator. So less choice, not more?


Edit - Just checked the prices, and it looks like the Qashqai e-power starts at £34k (base Qashqai petrol starts at £27k), whilst the Ariya starts at £39.6k. So a significant price difference, I agree, but not the £10k to £20k you suggest.

But again, I'm not really concerned about petrol 'v's BEV, I'm somewhat baffled as to why anyone would build a BEV Rx, but exclude the ability to plug-in.

I think another difference is that with the RX cars I have read about (like the BMW i3), the RX option was a bit of a 'get you home' thing; the i3's RX is a 34PS twin cylinder derived from a scooter. This Nissan is different because it's permanently in ICE to EV mode so it has a 158PS 3 cylinder engine.  The Nissan's emissions are c.120 g/km (manufacturer number) and gets about 45mpg (from a magazine test) so the same as a petrol car.   Its battery is only 2.1kWh.  Thinking about it, it's really just a petrol car with a different final transmission.   

Yep, and kinda ironic that the Qashqai e-power has a larger displacement engine than the petrol only cars. So built for that torque peak (like the diesel-electric loco example QrizB gives).

It seems to have roughly the same engine spec (1.5lt 3cyl) as the London Taxi's have, but without the larger batt (and ~80 miles of electric range), and the ability to plug in.

The mpg efficiency win, I assume, would come from having a batt, even a small one, allowing for re-gen. 

Yes re regen which means it is only really an efficiency win around town.  Motorway driving it does an appalling 29mpg.  But it is an alternative to a (non-plugin) Prius not an EV so what matters is whether it is better than ice or mild hybrid.  We know phevs only make sense if they are used on battery to any extent and afaik they often are not.  For example unless you have off-street parking with easy plug opportunity you would probably just drive your phev on ice given the hassle/cost of away from home charging.

Yes, I think you've described my thinking there - The best that these e-power's can achieve, is equal to the worst that a PHEV will. But the good news, is that the PHEV can achieve more, whether that's in the hands of the first, second or subsequent owner.

Only if its 20kwh battery actually gets some use, otherwise it really can be worse.....

thevilla

Tesla Bjorn had a look at it.  Not very impressed if I remember correctly.

https://youtu.be/rMbRlomm0BY?si=V6KnVKEmxkIvxam0

Grumpy_chap

Grumpy_chap said:

An interesting aside as a couple of you mentioned Pod Point, I saw Pod Point filming a new advert just opposite my house yesterday evening...

Well, I am not sure why but, having seen Pod Point filming an advert a couple of months back, today I saw BYD attempting to film an advert but being refused by the door security for the prestigious corner shop that they were seeking to film walking out of and then into the car.  Given how busy the area was, there would need to be some clever camera angles (or masking) to make the car the star.

Interestingly, the car had the "Build Your Dreams" badging which is contentious, apparently:
https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/byd-to-delete-build-your-dreams-badging-for-its-european-cars-amid-controversy/288939


On a totally different EV matter, I was rather surprised by the claims made by Sadiq Khan when he was on BBC London speaking on Tuesday about the ULEZ.  I have tried to go back to see the episode on iPlayer to check what was actually said but Tuesday's episodes don't seem to be available.  I can watch 25th July and then yesterday (31st August) and then today (1 September).  Rather odd that there are only apparently random episodes available to wind back to.

Grumpy_chap

I managed to find a version of the interview with Sadiq Khan on You-Tube and the claims the he made with regard to EV's were:

1. London has more electric buses than any other city in Western Europe
2. London has more rapid charging points than any other city in Western Europe
3. Greater than a third of the country's charging points are in London

Given how wanting the EV charging provision appears to be in London, these figures are not easy to believe unless they indicate an absolutely dire position everywhere else.

The link to the video is here and the above points are mentioned starting from just before 7 minutes in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n4B7ueT3Fw

Grumpy_chap

OK - third time lucky (I hope).  I've put a post in here twice and it has gone missing.  I will split my update thoughts on life with an EV in case the post was simply too long.

I received a marketing communication from Tesla for the same "free wall charger" offer that I took advantage of in June.
Well, am I glad I purchased my TM3 in June!!
I did expect that the pricing for September would be similar as the 1/4-end approached.  Nowhere near as large discounts as there were in June - perhaps the stock levels have been reduced pending the new model update?

I am still really enjoying life with the EV.  It is so relaxing to drive that, despite being by far the fastest (accelerating) car I've ever owned, it simply does not inspire the urge to blast about.

That said, I never seem to be able to do a journey without the energy page saying "fast acceleration is inefficient" (or whatever it says in that vein).

I will put a follow-on post with my further observations around charging experience.