Hybrid thoughts?

Petriix

There's some really wonky logic in this thread. Octopus Go Faster offers up to 5 hours of cheap electricity starting from 9:30pm. If you join today then your off-peak rate will be 7.5p for 4 hours or 8.25p for 5 hours; the peak rate is ~35p.

If you use just 25% of your total usage in the 7.5p window then you're no worse off than the current price cap, except that you'll be fixed for 12 months so not subject to the October price rise. With a little effort it's possible to shift far more than 25% to the off-peak window. I'm averaging over 70% off-peak.

Yes, I'm on a better deal than currently available. The point of the comparison is that I'm fixed from January this year. If you fix now then you'll be laughing compared to those on the October price cap. This is one of the perks of EV ownership. 

Martyn1981

I think the benefits of cheap rate for many are being missed due to some personal circumstances. Of course it won't work for everyone, but the suggestions are how it can help (many) and how incorporating other factors (BEVs, PV, batts etc) help to change the economics.

For myself, the benefits of E7 didn't work out, even when we had PV installed, as we didn't use much leccy at night, and our east/west PV is poor in the winter, so doesn't reduce daytime import enough. However, when we installed two small air to air heatpumps (air con units) to reduce gas consumption in the spring and autumn, by using PV for heating, and also spotted the benefits of running a system through the night on cheap rate in the winter (again to reduce gas consumption), the economics shifted.

Then with one, now two BEV's, the economics became clear, since we can choose to charge from PV (when available) or entirely cheap rate, thus avoiding any use of higher priced daytime leccy.

For reference our consumption was 3,000kWh's pa, roughly half import, and half PV (PV gen ~4,500kWh pa).
With the heatpumps, consumption rose to about 4,000kWh's, with most of the extra 1,000 being PV* or night rate.
With the BEV's, consumption rose to about 6,000kWh's, with most of the extra 2,000 being PV* or night rate.
Import is now about 2,000kWh's pa. Edit, sorry that should be 3,000kWh's import with roughly +1,000 from winter cheap rate BEV charging.

*Varying PV gen due to clouds can be a royal PITA.

We don't yet have batts, but they would further reduce daytime import (and night time), help balance daytime use of PV when gen is fluctuating, and as mentioned up thread, allow time shifting of night rate leccy to daytime offset too.

So, cheap rate contracts won't work for everyone, but as we adapt to the new world (BEV's, heatpumps, PV and batts), the economics will shift, and benefit more households ..... but of course not all.

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

I think the benefits of cheap rate for many are being missed due to some personal circumstances.

I think the real reason that the benefits of cheap / variable rates are being missed is because a number of contributors seem unable to see past their own circumstances and propose solutions that just are not available to others.

We get posts that might as well say:

"I am on a magic dust tariff with wonderpower and the tariff is frozen forever so I pay 6 pence/kWh daytime and they pay me 25 pence/kWh at night, the customer service is so great I get a relaxing full-body massage every second Tuesday, with manicure and pedicure every fourth Thursday.  Everyone should just do that.  Oh, and did I mention that it is so green energy, it actually has a global cooling effect?"

When challenged that the magic dust tariff with wonderpower is not available any longer and was only ever available in pixieland, that is shrugged over as negative.  

Fortunately, I have a flux capacitor and a sonic screwdriver, so will sign up to magic dust tariff next week, or whenever I get around to it...

It is only sensible to offer scenarios that are sensibly open to be taken up.  That could even include references to being on the magic dust tariff with clarification that the nearest similar would seem to be the XYZ and how that could still work.

MX5huggy

@Grumpy_chap the problem is you’ve not let let us explore your personal circumstances around your energy use. I’ve only given details of what’s available today. You say you have a “meter” well that’s no surprise I only know one property with out a meter. I have 5000 plus tenants who’s energy bills are a consequence of the decisions I take. My own circumstances don’t match any of theirs. 

ComicGeek

Martyn1981 said:

*Varying PV gen due to clouds can be a royal PITA.

That was the problem that I had before getting the battery system - my EV has a minimum charge rate of 1.4kW, and doesn't like charging being switched on and off every time a cloud passes over the sun. I actually found that on partially cloudy days it was costing me more trying to do this than just leaving it to charge during the cheap 7.5p/kWh period overnight.

Now I've got the battery system it is either using free PV directly, stored PV with a minimal loss, or stored 7.5p/kWh charge with a slightly larger loss. The difference in cost between charging by partial PV and no PV is minimised, so I don't feel bad when I can't be bothered to manage the system performance. Either way I can make profit on the 5p/mile expenses, so I'm much more relaxed about it now.

Today is a classic case - really fluctuating PV output, but charging the EV at 2.0kW, with about 75% free from the PV and 25% at 9p/kWh which still makes it cheaper than the overnight charge. The battery level is keeping fairly constant, with the periods of sun recharging at much the same rate as the EV is drawing. Trying to do that pre battery storage would have been frustrating, and would have ended up costing more than just leaving it until 0030 to charge at 7.5kW.

victor2

A lot of posts on here are based on a good return from cheaper off-peak electricity. Given the long time (years) that such a benefit is required to, in some cases, justify the cost of an EV, doesn't that raise the question how long such a difference between peak and off-peak use will continue? As EVs become more common and more and more smart chargers make use of "cheaper" electricity, won't the off-peak benefits be reduced?

I suppose that then moves towards justifying a battery based charging system and PV (where possible), further increasing the investment required and assuming you have your own parking and suitable roof/orientation at home.

ComicGeek

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

I think the benefits of cheap rate for many are being missed due to some personal circumstances.

I think the real reason that the benefits of cheap / variable rates are being missed is because a number of contributors seem unable to see past their own circumstances and propose solutions that just are not available to others.

We get posts that might as well say:

"I am on a magic dust tariff with wonderpower and the tariff is frozen forever so I pay 6 pence/kWh daytime and they pay me 25 pence/kWh at night, the customer service is so great I get a relaxing full-body massage every second Tuesday, with manicure and pedicure every fourth Thursday.  Everyone should just do that.  Oh, and did I mention that it is so green energy, it actually has a global cooling effect?"

When challenged that the magic dust tariff with wonderpower is not available any longer and was only ever available in pixieland, that is shrugged over as negative.  

Fortunately, I have a flux capacitor and a sonic screwdriver, so will sign up to magic dust tariff next week, or whenever I get around to it...

It is only sensible to offer scenarios that are sensibly open to be taken up.  That could even include references to being on the magic dust tariff with clarification that the nearest similar would seem to be the XYZ and how that could still work.

The real problem is that energy has been relatively cheap in the past, and a lot of people have not bothered to make the changes to their homes/lifestyles/car purchases/appliance purchases/heating systems etc over the years. They are now faced with a huge task to catch up on all areas. There is no single magic pill that solves every thing, short of just buying somewhere that has already had all the work done. The EV is just an extension of the home, the charging has to be part and parcel of a whole house strategy - that's the key thing that people need to understand. I've spent 12 years future proofing our current house, it hasn't happened overnight!

Part of my job involves talking through energy improvements with home owners - it's so frustrating when they list out all the lovely comestic alterations they've made over the last 10 years, but with zero thought of reducing energy usage at the same time. Quite happy spending £40k on a kitchen, but didn't want to spend £500 on insulation.

EPCs have been available for 15 years now, providing information on energy performance of homes - but most people don't bother looking at these. They are available for people renting or buying. There are some situations where this may not work (ie pre-paid meters, communal heating systems etc), but these are the minority. 

I'm not suggesting that everyone should go out and buy PV and batteries now. But it would have been a great decision to buy PV 11/12 years ago when the feed in tariffs were at their highest. Every now and again there are perfect windows of opportunity that really make sense - the highest feed in tariff rates then, and the EV tax breaks now for specific groups. But you have to move fast and have the available finances to take advantage.

Given that capped energy prices could increase by another 50% in October, it's really important that people spend the next few months looking at how they can reduce their energy usage as much as possible. What is the capped electricity price going to be after October? Probably could be higher than the Octopus Go peak rate of 35p/kWh, in which case it's a no brainer for anyone with an electric car.

@ Grumpy_chap - this isn't a dig at your post as I think you make some fair points, but I think we need to move away from the idea that people can just solve all their energy (home + EV) problems by just changing their energy tariff - now is the time to tackle usage and generation.

Grumpy_chap

victor2 said:

A lot of posts on here are based on a good return from cheaper off-peak electricity. Given the long time (years) that such a benefit is required to, in some cases, justify the cost of an EV, doesn't that raise the question how long such a difference between peak and off-peak use will continue? 

An EV uses approximately 25% of the energy per mile that an ICE uses.

When I've looked at the change to EV, it makes financial sense if you can charge at home, your pence per mile for driving will be lower than buying petrol / diesel.  That applies even with the recent increases in energy cost. 

When I've looked, that saving is not there if using paid-for public charging.  It is then about the same cost per mile for energy as ICE.  Very few people would use only paid-for public charging.

If you can make use of some cheaper energy then the benefit of EV gets better.  That could be free charging at destinations (e.g. supermarkets) or reduced tariff overnight charging or solar PV.  Obviously, solar PV has its own payback calculation to do and solar PV used for charging car cannot also be used (the same energy) to run the washing machine, so robbing Peter to pay Paul can come into it.

Petriix

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

I think the benefits of cheap rate for many are being missed due to some personal circumstances.

I think the real reason that the benefits of cheap / variable rates are being missed is because a number of contributors seem unable to see past their own circumstances and propose solutions that just are not available to others.

We get posts that might as well say:

"I am on a magic dust tariff with wonderpower and the tariff is frozen forever so I pay 6 pence/kWh daytime and they pay me 25 pence/kWh at night, the customer service is so great I get a relaxing full-body massage every second Tuesday, with manicure and pedicure every fourth Thursday.  Everyone should just do that.  Oh, and did I mention that it is so green energy, it actually has a global cooling effect?"

When challenged that the magic dust tariff with wonderpower is not available any longer and was only ever available in pixieland, that is shrugged over as negative.  

Fortunately, I have a flux capacitor and a sonic screwdriver, so will sign up to magic dust tariff next week, or whenever I get around to it...

It is only sensible to offer scenarios that are sensibly open to be taken up.  That could even include references to being on the magic dust tariff with clarification that the nearest similar would seem to be the XYZ and how that could still work.

This is total hyperbole. I've given a clear, generic example based on a current tariff. If you think that shifting just 25% of your usage into a 4 hour window is unrealistic then I really don't see any point in debating further. People are discussing the merits of fixing at 35p per kWh without the cheap rate. With 4 hours at 7.5p it's a no-brainer for all but the most extreme use cases. 

Bigphil1474

Hopefully you've all seen the news that national grid are talking about rolling out off peak usage benefits from Octopus to all suppliers possibly.

OP, the 56p per mile rate offered by NHS is down to trade union negotiation going back to around 2011. There used to be a national mileage rate review board that adjusted mileage rates every year for public sector workers. Unfortunately, they stopped in 2011 but the NHS now have their own. I was on 55p a mile in 2010, but in 2011, everyone where I work was put down to 45p a mile, and it hasn't changed since. Anything above 45p a mile is usually taxed at 20% (more for higher tax rate payers?) but is calculated at the end of the year as part of your P11D benefit in kind, and reduces your tax free allowance for the following year. So at 56p a mile, you are getting about 54p a mile after tax.