Petrol Forecourt now charging mandatory holding fees, who is responsible for the charge?

MattMattMattUK

zagfles said:

MattMattMattUK said:

zagfles said:

molerat said:

oldagetraveller1 said:

"When using PAP I use a credit card, when I use the Tesco pump it shows as £1 pending for a day or two then the actual amount."

Same here using Tesco Credit Card, but there's never a £1 pending, always a display on the pump advising a £99 maximum. It appears in my transactions two days later.

Last of the big spenders! That was 17 litre of go faster motion lotion in a Jerrycan for my Classic.

Maybe it is using a Tesco card that causes it not to reserve an amount.  I used to use my Tesco debit card (for the 2 points per £) and never had a reserve.  I now use my Tesco CC as the clubcard (for the 1 point per £) and another cashback card for the purchase and still never get a reserve.

Some banks don't show pending amounts, but they deduct it from the available credit. For instance, with Barclaycard, it'll show the pending amount. With Nationwide and First direct, it doesn't show pending amounts, but you can work them out by doing

credit limit minus current balance minus available credit. If that's not zero, then you have pending amounts.

Nationwide absolutely does show pending amounts, they sit at the top of the list in a current account or credit card account.

Maybe it's new, ISTR last time I checked when there was a pending payment I could only tell because of the reduction in the available credit. This was in online banking, not the app.

The app has had it for years and seems to be one of the better banking apps in that respect, I am not 100% sure about the website as I do not have any pending payments at the moment, but I am fairly sure it shows them at the top of the account page, although I will have to wait until I buy something again to be sure. 

molerat

Resuscitating this old thread

Filled up in Asda (at 178.7 ) and the pump showed it would withhold £99.  Checked my Lloyds app when I got home and it is showing a pending for £88.02, the amount I filled so it looks like the system is working as it should.

TheLabFather

It has now been vastly improved since inception. If you was to check your app straight after giving the card details it would have reserved £99 but as soon as you replace the nozzle in the pump the correct amount is reserved until processed 👍

RogerBareford

zagfles said:

username said:

Where would the variable limit be selected from? Bearing in mind most pumps are fairly basic devices hardware-wise and no doubt the specialised hardware is expensive too; many pumps are fairly old and do not get replaced often as no doubt there is a lot of capital expenditure required to refresh the associated hardware and software.

The appearance I have seen on some pumps of a fixed montary amount (e.g. £10/20/300) button dispenary on the pump itself is a fairly recent addition when the pumps got replaced with a refurb of the station.

The other thing to consider is the cost/benefit for the business. Ultimately it will cost the business to introduce this niche facility for very little benefit, and general public, being the general public will no doubt be confused/spend time fiddling with it, thus increasing the time spent on the forecourt but without any returns - such as the temptation to potentially buy profitable items in the shop.

With any consumer based business, the aim is to get people turned through as quickly as possible, whilst exposing opportunity to make profit in additional sales and limiting costs.

The communication needs to be made clearer at the pump that a hold of £99 will be placed on your card if you use the pay at the pump, and if you are not comfortable with this to draw the amount of fuel required, and to pay inside the shop.

No extra hardware is required. The screen at the pump already interacts with the user to ask for card PIN, to ask if receipt is required, just also ask if a different limit to £99 is required. There is already a keypad and menu buttons. Max one extra button press if user is happy with £99, a few if not, but less time wasted at the pump than queuing to pay the cashier and less cashier time taken possibly meaning less cashiers required saving the business money.

Making changes like that isn't as simple as you think. The part of the pump with the keypad where you enter your pin will be a different unit than the system that controls the pump.

It will be like when you go into a shop and the card reader is seperate to the till for example.

So the card reader part on the pump is able to accept an input from the pump detailing how much should be charged as that is what card readers are designed to do. It will also be able to have a function where you input how much you want to reserve but it most likely won't have a function where it ouputs this information because that isn't a normal use of a card reader. This means that even if they give the option to set a lower limit if it's not outputted to the pump then it will still go to the £99 limit it's been pre-set too and defeat the whole purpose of holding an amount.

That's why when you see pumps that allow you to choose what they stop at the buttons will be on the pump itself and they havn't used the card reader buttons for this as it's not possible.

Yes they could buy a system that this is possible but then it's going to be very expensive as it isn't just a collection of off the shelf hardware programmed to work together it will then be specialist hardware with custom firmware.

zagfles

RogerBareford said:

zagfles said:

username said:

Where would the variable limit be selected from? Bearing in mind most pumps are fairly basic devices hardware-wise and no doubt the specialised hardware is expensive too; many pumps are fairly old and do not get replaced often as no doubt there is a lot of capital expenditure required to refresh the associated hardware and software.

The appearance I have seen on some pumps of a fixed montary amount (e.g. £10/20/300) button dispenary on the pump itself is a fairly recent addition when the pumps got replaced with a refurb of the station.

The other thing to consider is the cost/benefit for the business. Ultimately it will cost the business to introduce this niche facility for very little benefit, and general public, being the general public will no doubt be confused/spend time fiddling with it, thus increasing the time spent on the forecourt but without any returns - such as the temptation to potentially buy profitable items in the shop.

With any consumer based business, the aim is to get people turned through as quickly as possible, whilst exposing opportunity to make profit in additional sales and limiting costs.

The communication needs to be made clearer at the pump that a hold of £99 will be placed on your card if you use the pay at the pump, and if you are not comfortable with this to draw the amount of fuel required, and to pay inside the shop.

No extra hardware is required. The screen at the pump already interacts with the user to ask for card PIN, to ask if receipt is required, just also ask if a different limit to £99 is required. There is already a keypad and menu buttons. Max one extra button press if user is happy with £99, a few if not, but less time wasted at the pump than queuing to pay the cashier and less cashier time taken possibly meaning less cashiers required saving the business money.

Making changes like that isn't as simple as you think. The part of the pump with the keypad where you enter your pin will be a different unit than the system that controls the pump.

It will be like when you go into a shop and the card reader is seperate to the till for example.

So the card reader part on the pump is able to accept an input from the pump detailing how much should be charged as that is what card readers are designed to do. It will also be able to have a function where you input how much you want to reserve but it most likely won't have a function where it ouputs this information because that isn't a normal use of a card reader. This means that even if they give the option to set a lower limit if it's not outputted to the pump then it will still go to the £99 limit it's been pre-set too and defeat the whole purpose of holding an amount.

That's why when you see pumps that allow you to choose what they stop at the buttons will be on the pump itself and they havn't used the card reader buttons for this as it's not possible.

Yes they could buy a system that this is possible but then it's going to be very expensive as it isn't just a collection of off the shelf hardware programmed to work together it will then be specialist hardware with custom firmware.

How does it tell the pump a lower limit when the user has less than £100 avaiable credit?

RogerBareford

zagfles said:

RogerBareford said:

zagfles said:

username said:

Where would the variable limit be selected from? Bearing in mind most pumps are fairly basic devices hardware-wise and no doubt the specialised hardware is expensive too; many pumps are fairly old and do not get replaced often as no doubt there is a lot of capital expenditure required to refresh the associated hardware and software.

The appearance I have seen on some pumps of a fixed montary amount (e.g. £10/20/300) button dispenary on the pump itself is a fairly recent addition when the pumps got replaced with a refurb of the station.

The other thing to consider is the cost/benefit for the business. Ultimately it will cost the business to introduce this niche facility for very little benefit, and general public, being the general public will no doubt be confused/spend time fiddling with it, thus increasing the time spent on the forecourt but without any returns - such as the temptation to potentially buy profitable items in the shop.

With any consumer based business, the aim is to get people turned through as quickly as possible, whilst exposing opportunity to make profit in additional sales and limiting costs.

The communication needs to be made clearer at the pump that a hold of £99 will be placed on your card if you use the pay at the pump, and if you are not comfortable with this to draw the amount of fuel required, and to pay inside the shop.

No extra hardware is required. The screen at the pump already interacts with the user to ask for card PIN, to ask if receipt is required, just also ask if a different limit to £99 is required. There is already a keypad and menu buttons. Max one extra button press if user is happy with £99, a few if not, but less time wasted at the pump than queuing to pay the cashier and less cashier time taken possibly meaning less cashiers required saving the business money.

Making changes like that isn't as simple as you think. The part of the pump with the keypad where you enter your pin will be a different unit than the system that controls the pump.

It will be like when you go into a shop and the card reader is seperate to the till for example.

So the card reader part on the pump is able to accept an input from the pump detailing how much should be charged as that is what card readers are designed to do. It will also be able to have a function where you input how much you want to reserve but it most likely won't have a function where it ouputs this information because that isn't a normal use of a card reader. This means that even if they give the option to set a lower limit if it's not outputted to the pump then it will still go to the £99 limit it's been pre-set too and defeat the whole purpose of holding an amount.

That's why when you see pumps that allow you to choose what they stop at the buttons will be on the pump itself and they havn't used the card reader buttons for this as it's not possible.

Yes they could buy a system that this is possible but then it's going to be very expensive as it isn't just a collection of off the shelf hardware programmed to work together it will then be specialist hardware with custom firmware.

How does it tell the pump a lower limit when the user has less than £100 avaiable credit?

That's interesting! I never thought about that. Is that what happens does it come back with an amount based on what credit is availble and then say you can spend £X amount on fuel? I just thought it was rejected if you had less than £100 availble.

zagfles

RogerBareford said:

zagfles said:

RogerBareford said:

zagfles said:

username said:

Where would the variable limit be selected from? Bearing in mind most pumps are fairly basic devices hardware-wise and no doubt the specialised hardware is expensive too; many pumps are fairly old and do not get replaced often as no doubt there is a lot of capital expenditure required to refresh the associated hardware and software.

The appearance I have seen on some pumps of a fixed montary amount (e.g. £10/20/300) button dispenary on the pump itself is a fairly recent addition when the pumps got replaced with a refurb of the station.

The other thing to consider is the cost/benefit for the business. Ultimately it will cost the business to introduce this niche facility for very little benefit, and general public, being the general public will no doubt be confused/spend time fiddling with it, thus increasing the time spent on the forecourt but without any returns - such as the temptation to potentially buy profitable items in the shop.

With any consumer based business, the aim is to get people turned through as quickly as possible, whilst exposing opportunity to make profit in additional sales and limiting costs.

The communication needs to be made clearer at the pump that a hold of £99 will be placed on your card if you use the pay at the pump, and if you are not comfortable with this to draw the amount of fuel required, and to pay inside the shop.

No extra hardware is required. The screen at the pump already interacts with the user to ask for card PIN, to ask if receipt is required, just also ask if a different limit to £99 is required. There is already a keypad and menu buttons. Max one extra button press if user is happy with £99, a few if not, but less time wasted at the pump than queuing to pay the cashier and less cashier time taken possibly meaning less cashiers required saving the business money.

Making changes like that isn't as simple as you think. The part of the pump with the keypad where you enter your pin will be a different unit than the system that controls the pump.

It will be like when you go into a shop and the card reader is seperate to the till for example.

So the card reader part on the pump is able to accept an input from the pump detailing how much should be charged as that is what card readers are designed to do. It will also be able to have a function where you input how much you want to reserve but it most likely won't have a function where it ouputs this information because that isn't a normal use of a card reader. This means that even if they give the option to set a lower limit if it's not outputted to the pump then it will still go to the £99 limit it's been pre-set too and defeat the whole purpose of holding an amount.

That's why when you see pumps that allow you to choose what they stop at the buttons will be on the pump itself and they havn't used the card reader buttons for this as it's not possible.

Yes they could buy a system that this is possible but then it's going to be very expensive as it isn't just a collection of off the shelf hardware programmed to work together it will then be specialist hardware with custom firmware.

How does it tell the pump a lower limit when the user has less than £100 avaiable credit?

That's interesting! I never thought about that. Is that what happens does it come back with an amount based on what credit is availble and then say you can spend £X amount on fuel? I just thought it was rejected if you had less than £100 availble.

See the MSE article linked in the second post of this thread. "If there's less than £100 in your account or on your card balance then whatever is available will be reserved. "

RogerBareford

zagfles said:

RogerBareford said:

zagfles said:

RogerBareford said:

zagfles said:

username said:

Where would the variable limit be selected from? Bearing in mind most pumps are fairly basic devices hardware-wise and no doubt the specialised hardware is expensive too; many pumps are fairly old and do not get replaced often as no doubt there is a lot of capital expenditure required to refresh the associated hardware and software.

The appearance I have seen on some pumps of a fixed montary amount (e.g. £10/20/300) button dispenary on the pump itself is a fairly recent addition when the pumps got replaced with a refurb of the station.

The other thing to consider is the cost/benefit for the business. Ultimately it will cost the business to introduce this niche facility for very little benefit, and general public, being the general public will no doubt be confused/spend time fiddling with it, thus increasing the time spent on the forecourt but without any returns - such as the temptation to potentially buy profitable items in the shop.

With any consumer based business, the aim is to get people turned through as quickly as possible, whilst exposing opportunity to make profit in additional sales and limiting costs.

The communication needs to be made clearer at the pump that a hold of £99 will be placed on your card if you use the pay at the pump, and if you are not comfortable with this to draw the amount of fuel required, and to pay inside the shop.

No extra hardware is required. The screen at the pump already interacts with the user to ask for card PIN, to ask if receipt is required, just also ask if a different limit to £99 is required. There is already a keypad and menu buttons. Max one extra button press if user is happy with £99, a few if not, but less time wasted at the pump than queuing to pay the cashier and less cashier time taken possibly meaning less cashiers required saving the business money.

Making changes like that isn't as simple as you think. The part of the pump with the keypad where you enter your pin will be a different unit than the system that controls the pump.

It will be like when you go into a shop and the card reader is seperate to the till for example.

So the card reader part on the pump is able to accept an input from the pump detailing how much should be charged as that is what card readers are designed to do. It will also be able to have a function where you input how much you want to reserve but it most likely won't have a function where it ouputs this information because that isn't a normal use of a card reader. This means that even if they give the option to set a lower limit if it's not outputted to the pump then it will still go to the £99 limit it's been pre-set too and defeat the whole purpose of holding an amount.

That's why when you see pumps that allow you to choose what they stop at the buttons will be on the pump itself and they havn't used the card reader buttons for this as it's not possible.

Yes they could buy a system that this is possible but then it's going to be very expensive as it isn't just a collection of off the shelf hardware programmed to work together it will then be specialist hardware with custom firmware.

How does it tell the pump a lower limit when the user has less than £100 avaiable credit?

That's interesting! I never thought about that. Is that what happens does it come back with an amount based on what credit is availble and then say you can spend £X amount on fuel? I just thought it was rejected if you had less than £100 availble.

See the MSE article linked in the second post of this thread. "If there's less than £100 in your account or on your card balance then whatever is available will be reserved. "

If indeed it is the case that all pay at pumps do this then there must be an ouput.

It would still need a firmware update of the card reader module which would not be something a company would want to pay for as it would cost a lot to add the extra functionality including the cost of paying for support for the custom firmware which is why they like to keep it standardised. But i am surprised that the company producing them havn't added this in anyway as it wouldn't be difficult for them.

born_again

Basic premise is.
Enter PIN requests £99. Get yes or No from bank. No will advise limit available.
Once pump is replaced back in pump, auth is updated to correct amount, between garage & bank.

But it may not always update in realtime on your account until the correct amount debits. Depends on banks software & how it interacts with app etc.

Nebulous2

Apologies if this is an unnecessary diversion. 

I had assumed on pay at the pump I was limited to £99 regardless of whether my van was full or not, and that's what I did. My son borrowed my van recently and put in £125. I asked how he managed that, and he said he put in £99, put back in his card and put in another £26.  

Is that standard? Reauthorising works after you've hit your limit?