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The neighbour of my immediate neighbour threatening to break my fence if I try to install it.

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  • TBagpuss
    TBagpuss Posts: 11,236 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    I agree with those suggesting that you check your insurance to see whether it has legal cover, and that you get some proper legal advice.
    Exactly what rights he have will depend on what the deeds says - it looks from the  plan as though there is a access along the side of your house, and an alley that runs along behind your house and those of all the neighbours.

    Assuming that's correct, then it's likely that all of the houses have rights to use the passageway to access to alley, and to pass over the part of the alley behind the other houses to get to the back of their own .

    I think it is *unlikely* that there is anything that would require you to leave additional space for someone to reverse or turn, but that would be dependent on the wording of the easement / RoW, it's nothing to do with where anyone else may have put their fence. 

    Based solely on the plan, i would think it is likely that the occupants of the 4 properties down from you, and the 5 up from you, are likely to have the right to use the passageway as it appears to be their only access to the back. It's possible that only those up from you have the right to use the alley behind your house, as those below you wouldn't need to do so to access their properties, but the wording may well be boilerplate and the same for all, rather than limiting each property to the access they actually need. 

    You could ask the angry neighbour to how you the deed he believed sets out that you must leave a larger space. 

    I am not quite clear where exactly you are planning to put the fence - if you want to put it where the black line is on your plan you are probably fine, if you want to extend it right to the end of your piece of land, where the red lines are, then you may need to install gates so any neighbours with benefit of the RoW can still cross, but you should look into what the original deed dais ad whether it specifies what the RoW covers (e.g. pedestrian or vehicle access, and whether there are any limits

    The issue about him running a business is slightly different - unless there are specific restrictive covenants in the deeds the issue would be whether the nature of the business means that he needs a licence from the council, whether the business is likely to cause a nuisance, whether he has appropriate arrangements / permits for things such as disposal of hazardous waste. You could call your local council to make enquiries about whether he would require planning permission to build a car repair garage on his property and/or to run it as a business. 
    All posts are my personal opinion, not formal advice Always get proper, professional advice (particularly about anything legal!)
  • Ath_Wat
    Ath_Wat Posts: 1,504 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 26 April 2022 at 5:37PM
    Abid_shah said:
    TripleH said:
    @Abid_shah it is the deeds that will give a definition of access.
    In my mind, access could be anything from 1 person on foot only to room for a road train to get round the back, which is a very broad scope. 
    Whilst I 'think' this neighbour's neighbour sounds like they are in the wrong, the deed could prove otherwise.
    Bendy_House's point about whether commercial access is prohibited is a key one as it could greatly help your arguement
    These are his deeds words on restriction of commercial activity.

    THE FIRST SCHEDULE above referred to
           1.  The trade of an Innkeeper Victualler of Retailer of Wines spirits
           or Beer or of a seller of any of those articles under an off-licence is
           now to be carried on upon the land hereby conveyed or any part thereof
           hereinafter called the land) and no house or building to be erected
           upon the land shall at any time hereafter be used for the manufacture
           or sale of wines beer spirits or intoxicating liquors.
           2.  No part of the land or any building to be erected thereon shall be
           used for any manufacture or any offensive noisy or dangerous trade
           businss purusit or occupation or any purpose which shall or may be or
           grow to be in any way a nuisance damage grievance or annoyance to the
           Vendors their successors in title or assigns or their tenants or to the
           owners or tenants of any of the neighbouring property or the
           neighbourhood or which may tend to depreciate or lessen the value of
           the adjoining or neighbouring land of the Vendors or any part thereof
           as residential property.  No temporary building shall be erected on any
           part of the land except for building purposes.

    it says business which cause nuisance to neighbours which obviously car repair service will cause in the whole street but in particular to me.
    you think it restrict him?
    It restricts him from setting up a business, it doesn't give you any rights to block any rights of way he has.

    You are chasing all the wrong points.  All you need to know is whether anything anywhere says he has vehicular ROW over your property.  If he hasn't, you can build your fence. If he has, you can't.

    If the point of you building your fence is solely to prevent him setting up his business, then that's a different question.
  • Abid_shah
    Abid_shah Posts: 27 Forumite
    10 Posts Name Dropper
    TBagpuss said:
    I agree with those suggesting that you check your insurance to see whether it has legal cover, and that you get some proper legal advice.
    Exactly what rights he have will depend on what the deeds says - it looks from the  plan as though there is a access along the side of your house, and an alley that runs along behind your house and those of all the neighbours.

    Assuming that's correct, then it's likely that all of the houses have rights to use the passageway to access to alley, and to pass over the part of the alley behind the other houses to get to the back of their own .

    I think it is *unlikely* that there is anything that would require you to leave additional space for someone to reverse or turn, but that would be dependent on the wording of the easement / RoW, it's nothing to do with where anyone else may have put their fence. 

    Based solely on the plan, i would think it is likely that the occupants of the 4 properties down from you, and the 5 up from you, are likely to have the right to use the passageway as it appears to be their only access to the back. It's possible that only those up from you have the right to use the alley behind your house, as those below you wouldn't need to do so to access their properties, but the wording may well be boilerplate and the same for all, rather than limiting each property to the access they actually need. 

    You could ask the angry neighbour to how you the deed he believed sets out that you must leave a larger space. 

    I am not quite clear where exactly you are planning to put the fence - if you want to put it where the black line is on your plan you are probably fine, if you want to extend it right to the end of your piece of land, where the red lines are, then you may need to install gates so any neighbours with benefit of the RoW can still cross, but you should look into what the original deed dais ad whether it specifies what the RoW covers (e.g. pedestrian or vehicle access, and whether there are any limits

    The issue about him running a business is slightly different - unless there are specific restrictive covenants in the deeds the issue would be whether the nature of the business means that he needs a licence from the council, whether the business is likely to cause a nuisance, whether he has appropriate arrangements / permits for things such as disposal of hazardous waste. You could call your local council to make enquiries about whether he would require planning permission to build a car repair garage on his property and/or to run it as a business. 
    Thanks yes I am just going up to. the black line on my plan, not to the red one as I need to leave the right of way for my neighbours on the right.

    so if that is the case and builders are here for reacting the fence, he says he will block it or break the fence. If he does that should I contact the police? 999 or 101?, I think he will try to get physical with me or the builders. I am a Civil servant and don’t want to get into any physical fight with him. 

    What will be the best strategy? To inform police now and explain them everything or only if he comes and create a fight with me or builders?
  • Ath_Wat
    Ath_Wat Posts: 1,504 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Abid_shah said:
    TBagpuss said:
    I agree with those suggesting that you check your insurance to see whether it has legal cover, and that you get some proper legal advice.
    Exactly what rights he have will depend on what the deeds says - it looks from the  plan as though there is a access along the side of your house, and an alley that runs along behind your house and those of all the neighbours.

    Assuming that's correct, then it's likely that all of the houses have rights to use the passageway to access to alley, and to pass over the part of the alley behind the other houses to get to the back of their own .

    I think it is *unlikely* that there is anything that would require you to leave additional space for someone to reverse or turn, but that would be dependent on the wording of the easement / RoW, it's nothing to do with where anyone else may have put their fence. 

    Based solely on the plan, i would think it is likely that the occupants of the 4 properties down from you, and the 5 up from you, are likely to have the right to use the passageway as it appears to be their only access to the back. It's possible that only those up from you have the right to use the alley behind your house, as those below you wouldn't need to do so to access their properties, but the wording may well be boilerplate and the same for all, rather than limiting each property to the access they actually need. 

    You could ask the angry neighbour to how you the deed he believed sets out that you must leave a larger space. 

    I am not quite clear where exactly you are planning to put the fence - if you want to put it where the black line is on your plan you are probably fine, if you want to extend it right to the end of your piece of land, where the red lines are, then you may need to install gates so any neighbours with benefit of the RoW can still cross, but you should look into what the original deed dais ad whether it specifies what the RoW covers (e.g. pedestrian or vehicle access, and whether there are any limits

    The issue about him running a business is slightly different - unless there are specific restrictive covenants in the deeds the issue would be whether the nature of the business means that he needs a licence from the council, whether the business is likely to cause a nuisance, whether he has appropriate arrangements / permits for things such as disposal of hazardous waste. You could call your local council to make enquiries about whether he would require planning permission to build a car repair garage on his property and/or to run it as a business. 
    Thanks yes I am just going up to. the black line on my plan, not to the red one as I need to leave the right of way for my neighbours on the right.

    so if that is the case and builders are here for reacting the fence, he says he will block it or break the fence. If he does that should I contact the police? 999 or 101?, I think he will try to get physical with me or the builders. I am a Civil servant and don’t want to get into any physical fight with him. 

    What will be the best strategy? To inform police now and explain them everything or only if he comes and create a fight with me or builders?
    The best strategy is to find out whether he has a vehicular right of way before trying to build a fence.

    If he has, you can't build it.  
  • sheramber
    sheramber Posts: 22,413 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts I've been Money Tipped! Name Dropper
    If he is reversing into your land and then accessing his own he must’ve passing over the passageway at the back of  your neighbour’s house- the neighbour between you and him. Why does he need to reverse onto your land? Can he not drive in and round to his own garden? 
  • 74jax
    74jax Posts: 7,930 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Is he driving over the ROW 'and' part of your garden as the ROW isn't big enough for him to do what he wants?

    I'd he claiming part of your garden is needed for his vehicles? As well as the ROW? 
    Forty and fabulous, well that's what my cards say....
  • Abid_shah
    Abid_shah Posts: 27 Forumite
    10 Posts Name Dropper
    74jax said:
    Is he driving over the ROW 'and' part of your garden as the ROW isn't big enough for him to do what he wants?

    I'd he claiming part of your garden is needed for his vehicles? As well as the ROW? 
    He can drive through the side way with a bit of slow driving and care. No issues with the side border of my garden. Towards the end if he try to get into the rear of his garden then the space is tight both behind his garden and my immediate Neighbour’s garden due to their fences. 

    So he is arguing that I reduce the length of my garden towards the rear so he can drive at the rear of my garden and then reverse into his own.

    For example if he reduces the length of his own garden and my immediate neighbour’s garden to make the space for his car at the rear then he can drive to his rear without using the rear of my garden.

    But he is not doing that and instead asking me to reduce the length of my garden to facilitate his needs. I believe he doesn’t have the ROW over the rear of my garden at all because ROW is for adjoining properties and his property is not adjoining to mine.

    And for my adjoining properties, I am leaving ROW according to my deed plan.
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