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The neighbour of my immediate neighbour threatening to break my fence if I try to install it.

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  • Section62
    Section62 Posts: 9,720 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Fourth Anniversary Name Dropper

    The one positive suggestion I can make is that I believe (I may be wrong) a 'passageway' suggests pedestrian access, not vehicular. But happy to be correctd!

    AIUI as 'passageway' is simply a way over which there is a right/ability to pass and repass (passage), no specifics about width or vehicle/pedestrian.

    Although people commonly use 'passageway' to refer to a narrow path/opening similar to what some people would call a Ginnel or Twitten.

    There are some (historic) public highways named ".... Passage" - a reference to the right to pass and repass - and some of those are more than wide enough to drive a car/van along.
  • pumas
    pumas Posts: 191 Forumite
    Fifth Anniversary 100 Posts
    Do you mean neighbour wants you to leave bottom of your garden (not the ROW) unfenced, so he can use your garden to turn?

  • Section62
    Section62 Posts: 9,720 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Fourth Anniversary Name Dropper
    Abid_shah said:

    My understanding is that he doesn’t have the right of way over my land and only my adjoining properties have the right of way at the rear of my garden. Is this correct?
    Who can use the RoW will depend on who is granted that right.  There is no generic rule that this is only granted to the immediate neighbours.

    In a setup like yours it is common for the right to exist for all properties that have the passageway behind them - in other words, if the neighbour you are concerned about wanted to drive all the way along the passageway and use the exit to the public highway between numbers 31 and 33 then in principle that would be Ok.

    It appears various owners have extended their gardens or built over the RoW between yours and 43/45 - these are potentially unlawful obstructions of the RoW.

    The streetview image from 2020 shows the exits from the RoW onto the highway having been blocked by gates/fences - is the gate/fence between 19/21 still there?  Does the problem neighbour have a key for the gate, or is it kept unlocked?
    Abid_shah said:

    2) Am I required to leave more space at the rear for my non Terrence adjoining neighbour to allow him reverse the car into the rear of his garden. This is a very tight space and I don’t believe it is intended for vehicles.
    It would have been designed for vehicular access to the rear of the properties - typically so people could have a garage at the far end of their back garden, accessed from the passageway.  It is tight by modern standards, but mainly because cars have got much larger on average than they were when the houses were built.

    It is impossible to say for sure without a lot more information, but I would say it is almost certain that the neighbour is within their rights to pass/repass over a strip of land (sufficiently wide for a car/light van) along the rear of your property.  That would include using the area to do a 'u'-turn.

    I would also check the deeds for number 19 as they may be the owners of the passageway from the rear to the public highway.  Theirs might be more explicit about the rights of all the neighbours.
  • Section62
    Section62 Posts: 9,720 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Fourth Anniversary Name Dropper
    Abid_shah said:

    I am no 23 then a passageway then no 25 then no 27.
    no 27 is objecting. Hope it’s clear . I highlighted his house yellow in the attached plan and mine is with red borders.
     
    Have I got something wrong here?  The yellow shaded property appears to be number 17, the red one number 21?
  • Abid_shah
    Abid_shah Posts: 27 Forumite
    10 Posts Name Dropper
    pumas said:
    Do you mean neighbour wants you to leave bottom of your garden (not the ROW) unfenced, so he can use your garden to turn?

    Yes, that’s what he wants me to leave part of my garden to turn his car.
  • Bendy_House
    Bendy_House Posts: 4,756 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited 27 April 2022 at 12:28PM
    IF the black line at the tip of the orange arrowhead indicates the end of your garden for which you have sole use and rights, and IF the green area is also 'yours' but ALSO has a RoW over it, then obviously you can build your fence along the orange arrowheaded black line, and you need to keep the whole green section clear. You, of course, do not need to eat into what's solely yours at all. And he can go swivel.
    I'm pretty sure it's as simple as that.


    I can see that the (RoW?) lane to the LH when you come down the main drive, does narrow down from the other side, so anyone turning left at the bottom might struggle? Whereas, it's significantly wider in your section as the opposite side is at an angle, yes? Was this neighbour's intention that he drives down the main lane, turns right into 'your' RoW section, and then reverses down 'his' to get to his garden? And he'd struggle to simply drive down the main lane and just turn left? At least not without shouting at the other dotted-corner neighbour too, for them to demolish part of their fence...
    The black line that forms the bottom of your garden (orange AH) is in line with your neighbouring properties to your right, yes? Is that the case on the ground? Are all the bottom fence lines aligned like this? And do your neighbour's deeds also show their ownership of wee black blocks in the RoW, like yours?
    Is this an accurate summation of what's going on? If not, what the hell is? :-)

    Well done for recording his threat! Keep on recording any dealings you have with him. Obviously we haven't heard what was said, or in what manner it was delivered, but if you truly believe it to be an actual threat to damage a fence that you put up on that orange-AH line, then I would let the local police know - you can do this on-line. The police want to PREVENT crimes and issues from occurring, not have to come out and clear up the mess when it's too late. Just say you are involved in a dispute over boundaries, and that this neighbour has made what you believe is a threat of criminal damage if you carry out your rightful actions. They probably won't rush out, but they'll almost certainly attend within a few days for a chat with you both. YOU be Mr Calm and reasonable - simply show them your deeds, and where you plan to put your rightful fence. Then explain what the neighb has said, and in what manner. They will NOT become involved in the actual 'dispute' - tho' they might accept that it appears to be as you say, given your evidence - but they WLL (should...) warn you both (ie effectively him...) to do this properly and legally, and to not make or cause actual damage - or else. That should hopefully make the neighbour act sensibly from then on. If he moans afterwards, just say, "What did you expect...?!"
    And, if he actually threatens YOU in any sense, that's a 999 jobbie. Record record record.

  • Ath_Wat
    Ath_Wat Posts: 1,504 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Section62 said:
    Abid_shah said:

    I am no 23 then a passageway then no 25 then no 27.
    no 27 is objecting. Hope it’s clear . I highlighted his house yellow in the attached plan and mine is with red borders.
     
    Have I got something wrong here?  The yellow shaded property appears to be number 17, the red one number 21?
    That's what it looks like on the satellite image, I agree.  
  • Abid_shah
    Abid_shah Posts: 27 Forumite
    10 Posts Name Dropper
    IF the black line at the tip of the orange arrowhead indicates the end of your garden for which you have sole rights, and IF the green area is also 'yours' but ALSO has a RoW over it, then obviously you can build your fence along the orange arrowheaded black line, and you need to keep the green section clear. And he can go swivel.
    I'm pretty sure it's as simple as that.


    I can see that the continuing RoW (I presume) that then goes along the bottom of this other neighbour does narrow down from the other side, whereas it's significantly wider in your section. Was his intention that he drives down that lane, turns right into 'your' section, and then reverses down 'his'? And he'd struggle to simply drive down and turn left? At least without shouting at the other corner neighbour too, for them to demolish part of their corner...
    The black line that forms the bottom of your garden (orange AH) is in line with your neighbouring properties to your right, yes? Is that the case on the ground? Are all the bottom fence lines aligned like this?
    Is this an accurate summation of what's going on? If not, what the hell is? :-)

    Well done for recording his threat! Keep on recording any dealings you have with him. Obviously we haven't heard what was said, or in what manner it was delivered, but if you truly believe it to be an actual threat to damage a fence that you put up on that orange-AH line, then I would let the local police know - you can do this on-line. The police want to PREVENT crimes and issues from occurring, not have to come out and clear up the mess when it's too late. Just say you are involved in a dispute over boundaries, and that this neighbour has made what you believe is a threat of criminal damage if you carry out your rightful actions. They probably won't rush out, but they'll almost certainly attend within a few days for a chat with you both. YOU be Mr Calm and reasonable - simply show them your deeds, and where you plan to put your rightful fence. Then explain what the neighb has said, and in what manner. They will NOT become involved in the actual 'dispute' - tho' they might accept that it appears to be as you say, given your evidence - but they WLL (should...) warn you both (ie effectively him...) to do this properly and legally, and to not make or cause actual damage - or else. That should hopefully make the neighbour act sensibly from then on. If he moans afterwards, just say, "What did you expect...?!"
    And, if he actually threatens YOU in any sense, that's a 999 jobbie. Record record record.

    Yes my Proposed fence is at the black line where your orange arrow is. The green area in your picture is mine and I would leave that as ROW. The fences are lined up on the left but not on the right of my property. Some are before my proposed line and some are beyond that on the ground In reality on the ground. 

    The passage on my right is blocked by big trees in there.

    Are there any documents I can get from land registry which specify what Right of way means for us? Vehicle access or on foot for garden waste etc. ?

    I believe it is not meant to be vehicle access as you described the passageway gets narrower than mine at the rear of the complaining neighbour. Mine ROW area will be wider than his even if I react fence at the proposed black line.
  • theoretica
    theoretica Posts: 12,691 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    What we don't think you have posted is the exact wording of yellow house's deeds about what ROW he has - and how it is shown on the map of his deeds. It looks like it will be both over the house between you and the passageway.  And the bottom of your garden is not the passageway between houses - so likely no ROW over that at all.  For comparison, it might be worth also getting the deeds of your neighbour on the other side, who probably will have ROW over the bottom of your garden.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
  • Section62
    Section62 Posts: 9,720 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Fourth Anniversary Name Dropper
    IF the black line at the tip of the orange arrowhead indicates the end of your garden for which you have sole use and rights, and IF the green area is also 'yours' but ALSO has a RoW over it, then obviously you can build your fence along the orange arrowheaded black line, and you need to keep the whole green section clear. You, of course, do not need to eat into what's solely yours at all. And he can go swivel.
    I'm pretty sure it's as simple as that.

    I can see that the (RoW?) lane to the LH when you come down the main drive, does narrow down from the other side, so anyone turning left at the bottom might struggle? Whereas, it's significantly wider in your section as the opposite side is at an angle, yes? Was this neighbour's intention that he drives down the main lane, turns right into 'your' RoW section, and then reverses down 'his' to get to his garden? And he'd struggle to simply drive down the main lane and just turn left? At least not without shouting at the other dotted-corner neighbour too, for them to demolish part of their fence...
    The black line that forms the bottom of your garden (orange AH) is in line with your neighbouring properties to your right, yes? Is that the case on the ground? Are all the bottom fence lines aligned like this? And do your neighbour's deeds also show their ownership of wee black blocks in the RoW, like yours?
    Is this an accurate summation of what's going on? If not, what the hell is? :-)

    If you haven't already then you probably need to look at the aerial photos - that OS plan isn't really representative of what is there now. A lot has changed.
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