The neighbour of my immediate neighbour threatening to break my fence if I try to install it.

CardiffCrank

I saw that too. However, it does say "benefit of way over the passageway at the rear leading into Rosebery Avenue". They need access down the side of OP's house to get to Rosebery Avenue.

Seems likely that, if it is a vehicular RoW, the neighbours on the north must have the right to to bring vehicles up the side of OP's house and then turn right along the back of OP's garden. And angry neighbour just wants to do the same thing, but then reverse back towards his garden. If OP's fence obstructs angry neighbour, does it not also obstruct all the nice normal neighbours to the north?

Of course, maybe the fence would let vehicles of a standard size from the 1930s go past, but not today's vehicles. Surely OP can't keep surrendering rights for increasingly large vehicles without limit?

Abid_shah

RAS said:

Section62 said:

The streetview image from 2020 shows the exits from the RoW onto the highway having been blocked by gates/fences - is the gate/fence between 19/21 still there?  Does the problem neighbour have a key for the gate, or is it kept locked?

When I looked at the street view, behind the gates seemed to be grassed with a trampoline sited on it in August 2020? Who was using the space then? In what capacity?

I note that neither n 17 or 23 appear to have anything in their deeds about a right of way over the passage way between 19-21, merely about the ROW over the passage way to the rear of their property.

But both have reference to a transaction in 1929, which included covenants. I think it would be a good idea to get hold of copies of those covenants. Maybe nothing, but might be your answer.

I was using it as I said I paid for it to be cleaned and put a gate at the start of passageway agreeing with neighbours and giving them keys. Later on no 17 objected to it and had to take it down even though he accepted the key from me. Unfortunately I didn’t get written agreement from them but verbal agreement was made about the gate. Now no gate there anymore and I need a fence for my garden on the left side.
In the number 17’s deed section A para 2 refers to it as a way over the rear leading into Rosebery Avenue which is the passage way between me and no 19. 

Ath_Wat

CardiffCrank said:

Seems likely that, if it is a vehicular RoW, the neighbours on the north must have the right to to bring vehicles up the side of OP's house and then turn right along the back of OP's garden. And angry neighbour just wants to do the same thing, but then reverse back towards his garden. If OP's fence obstructs angry neighbour, does it not also obstruct all the nice normal neighbours to the north?

Of course, maybe the fence would let vehicles of a standard size from the 1930s go past, but not today's vehicles. Surely OP can't keep surrendering rights for increasingly large vehicles without limit?

I believe that neighbours to the north, from what the OP says, have all encroached on that space themselves, so nobody now has access past his house.

Of course that doesn't mean that the neighbour in question does not still have ROW, and if there is a vehicular ROW defined, it's not much good if the space is too tight to turn into it.

I suspect from the photos that the neighbour has either moved in recently or recently started to make use of a ROW that has been unused for a long time, and the building of the fence is actually intended expressly for the purpose of blocking the turning space, so he can't use it.  Of course, the OP may still have the right to do this.

Ath_Wat

Ath_Wat said:

CardiffCrank said:

Seems likely that, if it is a vehicular RoW, the neighbours on the north must have the right to to bring vehicles up the side of OP's house and then turn right along the back of OP's garden. And angry neighbour just wants to do the same thing, but then reverse back towards his garden. If OP's fence obstructs angry neighbour, does it not also obstruct all the nice normal neighbours to the north?

Of course, maybe the fence would let vehicles of a standard size from the 1930s go past, but not today's vehicles. Surely OP can't keep surrendering rights for increasingly large vehicles without limit?

I suspect from the photos that the neighbour has either moved in recently or recently started to make use of a ROW that has been unused for a long time, and the building of the fence is actually intended expressly for the purpose of blocking the turning space, so he can't use it.  Of course, the OP may still have the right to do this.

Abid_shah said:

RAS said:

Section62 said:

The streetview image from 2020 shows the exits from the RoW onto the highway having been blocked by gates/fences - is the gate/fence between 19/21 still there?  Does the problem neighbour have a key for the gate, or is it kept locked?

When I looked at the street view, behind the gates seemed to be grassed with a trampoline sited on it in August 2020? Who was using the space then? In what capacity?

I note that neither n 17 or 23 appear to have anything in their deeds about a right of way over the passage way between 19-21, merely about the ROW over the passage way to the rear of their property.

But both have reference to a transaction in 1929, which included covenants. I think it would be a good idea to get hold of copies of those covenants. Maybe nothing, but might be your answer.

I was using it as I said I paid for it to be cleaned and put a gate at the start of passageway agreeing with neighbours and giving them keys. Later on no 17 objected to it and had to take it down even though he accepted the key from me. Unfortunately I didn’t get written agreement from them but verbal agreement was made about the gate. Now no gate there anymore and I need a fence for my garden on the left side.

Oh, bingo.

CardiffCrank

I was using it as I said I paid for it to be cleaned and put a gate at the start of passageway agreeing with neighbours and giving them keys. Later on no 17 objected to it and had to take it down even though he accepted the key from me.

Charming man!

Ath_Wat

CardiffCrank said:

I was using it as I said I paid for it to be cleaned and put a gate at the start of passageway agreeing with neighbours and giving them keys. Later on no 17 objected to it and had to take it down even though he accepted the key from me.

Charming man!

Without being party to the conversation it's hard to attribute blame.  OP wanted effectively to fence off the alleyway so his kids could have a trampoline on it; neighbour might well have said "OK, but if I need to start using it I'll want the gate gone".

With respect to the OP clarity and detail don't seem to be his strength.

CardiffCrank

It is an interesting question, for an armchair lawyer. Looking at the original post, the titles would seem to back him up. Right of way over the rear passage leading to Rosebery Ave --- why would you expect right of way over the north branch if you lived to the south, or vice versa? But obviously there must be more somewhere, if you keep paying more for the searches.

Ath_Wat

The issue seems to be  that the neighbour between the two has built an outbuilding (garage?) leaving a narrow gap so a car can't  turn to the south but has to turn into the north and reverse.

It may be that the problem neighbour needs to take it up with the house in between- but that would mean demolishing a building in situ.

Of course, if the OP hadn't fenced off the alleyway and made it open plan with his garden, and his fence had remained in situ all the time, it might well be there would still be the issue with turning but as it was just the way things are on the ground, nobody would have challenged it.

Section62

Abid_shah said:

RAS said:

Section62 said:

The streetview image from 2020 shows the exits from the RoW onto the highway having been blocked by gates/fences - is the gate/fence between 19/21 still there?  Does the problem neighbour have a key for the gate, or is it kept locked?

When I looked at the street view, behind the gates seemed to be grassed with a trampoline sited on it in August 2020? Who was using the space then? In what capacity?

I note that neither n 17 or 23 appear to have anything in their deeds about a right of way over the passage way between 19-21, merely about the ROW over the passage way to the rear of their property.

But both have reference to a transaction in 1929, which included covenants. I think it would be a good idea to get hold of copies of those covenants. Maybe nothing, but might be your answer.

I was using it as I said I paid for it to be cleaned and put a gate at the start of passageway agreeing with neighbours and giving them keys. Later on no 17 objected to it and had to take it down even though he accepted the key from me. Unfortunately I didn’t get written agreement from them but verbal agreement was made about the gate. Now no gate there anymore and I need a fence for my garden on the left side.
In the number 17’s deed section A para 2 refers to it as a way over the rear leading into Rosebery Avenue which is the passage way between me and no 19. 

...I asked about that earlier in the thread.  It is a key piece of information which would have been very useful at the start.

Do you own the land between 19 and 21? Your title plan suggests not.  You almost certainly didn't have the right to put a gate up, and can't complain that he wanted the gate removed.

You don't need to give him access to more of your rear garden than is necessary for the RoW, but as the fences appear to have been moved around a fair bit it may be difficult to prove exactly how wide the RoW is.

In the absence of anything in writing I think you'd find it impossible to prove he doesn't have RoW along the back of your property which would enable him to do a 3-point turn at the junction.

EmmyLou30

Judging by the LR plans you've provided, multiple houses likely have ROW up the lane between the houses and then along the rear of the gardens like may terraces do. This may be for vehicles or just on foot for bins (the deeds should state which). But regardless of whether or not the deeds say he can drive up it, the fact it's too narrow for a modern car does not mean you have to keep your private garden available to facilitate him driving to the rear of his property! 

You can legally fence in your own garden as you plan to and he can get stuffed. I would lodge a complaint with the police including his threats. Then if (or more likely when) he drives into your fence or tries to remove it call the police to report him.