The neighbour of my immediate neighbour threatening to break my fence if I try to install it.

theoretica

Ath_Wat said:

The issue seems to be  that the neighbour between the two has built an outbuilding (garage?) leaving a narrow gap so a car can't  turn to the south but has to turn into the north and reverse.

If you look at the 1930s map I linked to it looks like the alleyway was always pretty narrow and at least on the map well defined and the current outbuildings match quite well with what was shown as garden in the 1930s.  Just as a public highway can be too narrow and steep for a large caravan/coach/lorry drive down, a ROW doesn't need to expand for ever-bigger vehicles to pass.

Section62

EmmyLou30 said:

But regardless of whether or not the deeds say he can drive up it, the fact it's too narrow for a modern car does not mean you have to keep your private garden available to facilitate him driving to the rear of his property!

The OP needs to keep their fence in a position where the right of way is not obstructed.  Working out how much land the RoW covers will be the difficult part.

At the moment he appears to be disputing that there is any vehicular access right for the owner of number 17.

It isn't clear exactly what the OP's 'plan' is, so it is impossible to say whether or not the neighbour can "get stuffed".  The OP risks getting into a legal dispute with the neighbour which could have quite serious consequences.  There's a need for more facts and less opinion.

Spreadsheetman

OP should have got their fence in a while before clearing the alleyway and opening Pandora's box!

Given it's a 1930's title the access will have been just for garden materials/(motor)cycle parking/bins/coal on hand carts, no-one in a terrace like that would have owned a car in the first place.

Abid_shah

CardiffCrank said:

I was using it as I said I paid for it to be cleaned and put a gate at the start of passageway agreeing with neighbours and giving them keys. Later on no 17 objected to it and had to take it down even though he accepted the key 

Charming man!

I was using my own garden not the passageway

Ath_Wat

Abid_shah said:

CardiffCrank said:

I was using it as I said I paid for it to be cleaned and put a gate at the start of passageway agreeing with neighbours and giving them keys. Later on no 17 objected to it and had to take it down even though he accepted the key 

Charming man!

I was using my own garden not the passageway

In this image it looks like someone, presumably living in your house on the right,  has a trampoline there and has basically extended their garden across the passageway, which is not just between the houses but all the way down between the gardens.

It also looks here like a brick building has been built where the alleyway ought to be, which would surely render the fencing immaterial.  Is this just optically misleading?  Or is there an ongoing dispute about that strip of land and the right of way?

jonnydeppiwish!

Reading through the thread, I think I understand.

The op wants to illegally block off a RoW in order to extend their garden, which they believe is okay as their neighbour is happy with that.

The Op has not provided the exact wording of the RoW in order for anyone to make an ‘informed’ comment.

Number 17 is unhappy as they have always used the RoW in or to manoeuvre their vehicle from the back of their property, that they may, or may not have a RoW, let alone a vehicular RoW over.

What about the other neighbours who potentially have a RoW through the bottom of the op’s garden?

Op, you seriously need to take some legal advice over what you are about to undertake. As already stated, speak to you home insurance legal cover for advice. If you don’t have it, either get it and ask in 6 months, or speak to a specialist solicitor as to how you may proceed.

Just because one neighbour is happy about it doesn’t mean the other are, or that you can actually do it.

That RoW needs to be accessible at all times - do you really want people walking through back of your garden whenever they want?

I’ve just experienced a friends who has had a similar issue to yours lose in excess of £60k in legal fees when they lost a case in court and had to pay the other party’s costs.

Ms_Chocaholic

jonnydeppiwish! said:

Reading through the thread, I think I understand.

The op wants to illegally block off a RoW in order to extend their garden, which they believe is okay as their neighbour is happy with that.

The Op has not provided the exact wording of the RoW in order for anyone to make an ‘informed’ comment.

Number 17 is unhappy as they have always used the RoW in or to manoeuvre their vehicle from the back of their property, that they may, or may not have a RoW, let alone a vehicular RoW over.

What about the other neighbours who potentially have a RoW through the bottom of the op’s garden?

Op, you seriously need to take some legal advice over what you are about to undertake. As already stated, speak to you home insurance legal cover for advice. If you don’t have it, either get it and ask in 6 months, or speak to a specialist solicitor as to how you may proceed.

Just because one neighbour is happy about it doesn’t mean the other are, or that you can actually do it.

That RoW needs to be accessible at all times - do you really want people walking through back of your garden whenever they want?

I’ve just experienced a friends who has had a similar issue to yours lose in excess of £60k in legal fees when they lost a case in court and had to pay the other party’s costs.

That is not my understanding having just read through it.  I think the OP wants to put up a fence from their property to the start of the ROW (and not extend the garden) but by putting the fence in it makes it difficult for the person living at no 17 to turn their vehicle into the ROW and so they are threatening to pull down the fence.

jonnydeppiwish!

But the op has written that they want to fence off the RoW at the rear as it hasn’t been used until they cleared it in 2020?

markin

theoretica said:

This is rather interesting for showing the situation in the 1930s - and which properties did and din't have passageway behind them - I would also argue it shows clearly what is passageway - and has ROW over it, and what is garden, and doesn't.  https://maps.nls.uk/view/103657817

This map clearly points out the original plan and use, Weather the current neighbours mind or not you should not be blocking the ROW in any way.

It actually looks like the 2 houses have extended the gardens level with the OP's when they should not have.

MalMonroe

Hi, my main concern would be this, which is from your first post -

"His plan is to build a car repair garage at the back of his garden and his idea is that I must leave more space that theirs at my rear garden to allow him reverse car into the rear of his garden and repair it there which as far as I know is not legal. He regularly repair cars for customers on the street and at his driveway which again I believe is illegal."

And you need to contact your council about this in particular because people are not allowed to run businesses such as this without applying for the correct consent. I'm surprised that other neighbours haven't already reported him to the council.

Going on from there you could then ask the council to clarify your position if you were to place a fence where you intend to. Then at least you will know, officially, what you are and are not allowed to do.