Garage has aquired car in a misleading way!

motorguy

moneymoner said:

Herzlos said:

Ibrahim5 said:

It's not theft, more like obtaining goods by deception.

Where was the deception?

Garage: It'll cost £4000 to repair, or I can take it off your hands and save you the hassle.

Owner: Ok, you can have it.
Garage: <Repairs it over 6 months>
Owner: <shocked>.

There was no lies or co-ersion. The owner could have arranged for a scrap yard to come and collect it from the garage and give her £40, and then the scrap yard could have repaired it and sold it. Or she could have had it towed home and dumped in her garden until she found an engine and learned how to replace it.

The garage knew what it was worth to them but convinced the seller it was worth nothing to her, that is deception.

If the garage agreed to scrap the vehicle then they must state this in the V5 reciept, which they give to the previous ownew and when they take ownership of the vehicle.

£4000 to repair a broken timing chain is hugely excessive cost and should not cost a capable and skilled mechanic no more than £500 in parts and labour. Even if the valves were damaged in the engine, a replacement or rebuilt engine would not cost no more than £2000 to fit.

Gather together all the photos and as much documents relating to the sale as possible. Then take them to court to get the finance agreement cancelled.

Sorry but your heads in the clouds if you think a wrecked engine can be stripped, checked, potentially major internal components replaced and rebuilt for £500.  The chain assembly along could cost that, before you start looking at bent valves, con rods, pisthon head damage, etc.  Its an easy £2,000 job at any engineering works.  Its certainly not a "lets hammer a few new valves in and it'll be fine" scenario.

Tell you what, ring an engineering works and tell them you've an engine here with a snapped timing chain and can they give you a ball park as to the cost of a full rebuild.

On top of that even 5 hours labour either end @ say £75+VAT an hour, then any other work it might need doing while you're there - maybe a new clutch while you're in there, full service, etc, etc.

motorguy

moneymoner said:

Herzlos said:

Ibrahim5 said:

It's not theft, more like obtaining goods by deception.

Where was the deception?

Garage: It'll cost £4000 to repair, or I can take it off your hands and save you the hassle.

Owner: Ok, you can have it.
Garage: <Repairs it over 6 months>
Owner: <shocked>.

There was no lies or co-ersion. The owner could have arranged for a scrap yard to come and collect it from the garage and give her £40, and then the scrap yard could have repaired it and sold it. Or she could have had it towed home and dumped in her garden until she found an engine and learned how to replace it.

The garage knew what it was worth to them but convinced the seller it was worth nothing to her, that is deception.

If the garage agreed to scrap the vehicle then they must state this in the V5 reciept, which they give to the previous ownew and when they take ownership of the vehicle.

£4000 to repair a broken timing chain is hugely excessive cost and should not cost a capable and skilled mechanic no more than £500 in parts and labour. Even if the valves were damaged in the engine, a replacement or rebuilt engine would not cost no more than £2000 to fit.

Gather together all the photos and as much documents relating to the sale as possible. Then take them to court to get the finance agreement cancelled.

This ship has long since sailed.  Clearly you understand as much about the finance as you do about engine works.

This was over six months ago, the O/P's girlfriend is longsince in to a new car.

Waste of time and money pursuing it through the courts.

motorguy

Ibrahim5 said:

I love these discussions. Motor traders just don't understand being honest. It's just not part of their culture. So in a whole sea of lies they see this one as almost honest. I don't really think it's lying. We just mislead her a bit. Exaggerated the repair costs. "No need to worry your little head, we'll take it to the scrapyard for you love. Just sign here". I think if garages ever change it will take generations. Decades.

Where did they say they were going to scrap it?

Can you find that sentence please?

They said it was beyond economic repair for her.  Very different things.

motorguy

Ibrahim5 said:

I love these discussions. Motor traders just don't understand being honest. It's just not part of their culture. So in a whole sea of lies they see this one as almost honest. I don't really think it's lying. We just mislead her a bit. Exaggerated the repair costs. "No need to worry your little head, we'll take it to the scrapyard for you love. Just sign here". I think if garages ever change it will take generations. Decades.

Given your previous sexist comments about women and computers, its not a surprise you think like that.

motorguy

Herzlos said:

moneymoner said:

Herzlos said:

Ibrahim5 said:

It's not theft, more like obtaining goods by deception.

Where was the deception?

Garage: It'll cost £4000 to repair, or I can take it off your hands and save you the hassle.

Owner: Ok, you can have it.
Garage: <Repairs it over 6 months>
Owner: <shocked>.

There was no lies or co-ersion. The owner could have arranged for a scrap yard to come and collect it from the garage and give her £40, and then the scrap yard could have repaired it and sold it. Or she could have had it towed home and dumped in her garden until she found an engine and learned how to replace it.

The garage knew what it was worth to them but convinced the seller it was worth nothing to her, that is deception.

If the garage agreed to scrap the vehicle then they must state this in the V5 reciept, which they give to the previous ownew and when they take ownership of the vehicle.

£4000 to repair a broken timing chain is hugely excessive cost and should not cost a capable and skilled mechanic no more than £500 in parts and labour. Even if the valves were damaged in the engine, a replacement or rebuilt engine would not cost no more than £2000 to fit.

Gather together all the photos and as much documents relating to the sale as possible. Then take them to court to get the finance agreement cancelled.

It was worth less than nothing to her. It would have cost her £4000 to get it back running. Of course we don't know if she'd have got someone else to do it for less elsewhere by the time she paid to get it transported about.

She had the option to pay for it and she chose to buy something else, giving the garage the broken car as part of the deal. What's also not clear is if she was given any p/x for it against the price of the new one.

If the garage told her she was going to scrap it, gave her paperwork to that effect and then didn't, they'd be acting badly but I'm pretty sure she just passed it to their ownership.

She can try and take them to court about it if she wants, but she'll get laughed out of court since she agreed to the sale. I think all she could really hope for is for the garage to offer it to her for the £4k back (or whatever they'd actually have billed for it), but even that's a monumental stretch.

Exactly.

At no point did they say they were going to scrap it - they said it was beyond economic repair for her.

I saw that on occasions when i was motor trading.  I can recall quite a clean little Corsa being traded in to the Vauxhall dealer we underwrote for.  Timing belt had snapped.  It wasnt economically viable for them to repair it so they just traded it in.

Saw that with a Clio too.  The people just sold it as was, rather than be bothered with the work and the big bill.

Herzlos

A friend of mines' dad is a mechanic and his first few cars were cars he was more or less given by customers who didn't think they were worth repairing, so  I've always assumed it was commonplace for garages to restore cars in their down time. My FiL usually buys MOT failures at scrap prices to get back onto the road, too.

So unless the OP's partner was expressly told it was going to be scrapped (and we're hearing a 3rd party account later on), what the garage did is perfectly normal and above board. Assuming of course it really was a £4k repair, but we've no reason to believe it isn't.

Ditzy_Mitzy

Herzlos said:

A friend of mines' dad is a mechanic and his first few cars were cars he was more or less given by customers who didn't think they were worth repairing, so  I've always assumed it was commonplace for garages to restore cars in their down time. My FiL usually buys MOT failures at scrap prices to get back onto the road, too.

So unless the OP's partner was expressly told it was going to be scrapped (and we're hearing a 3rd party account later on), what the garage did is perfectly normal and above board. Assuming of course it really was a £4k repair, but we've no reason to believe it isn't.

I don't really think it matters whether the garage said the car was to be scrapped or not; even scrap dealers sometimes won't break a car if it's worth more complete.  What is done with the car post sale is purely the prerogative of the buyer.  

Jenni_D

It matters if it was transferred to the dealer for scrapping - that's a specific category on the V5C transfer section (I believe) and so would have been registered accordingly with DVLA.

born_again

moneymoner said:

Gather together all the photos and as much documents relating to the sale as possible. Then take them to court to get the finance agreement cancelled.

Op has only passed on what girlfriend has deemed to tell them.

Has never come back to say which of the 2 garages quoted £4K (best guess Kia dealer) but no mention of what the other garage quoted.
Did they say they were going to scrap it? Or is that just a take on a guess, as none of us where there?

Don't know where you get the idea that a court would cancel the finance agreement. If OP's girlfriend does she's in a heap more trouble.
Are you prepared to help her on the advice you are giving?

Ditzy_Mitzy

Jenni_D said:

It matters if it was transferred to the dealer for scrapping - that's a specific category on the V5C transfer section (I believe) and so would have been registered accordingly with DVLA.

There is and there isn't.  Section 4 of the V5 transfer is for sale of the vehicle into trade, but doing so places the trader under no obligation to scrap it.  If he does he will complete a Certificate of Destruction and the registration will be taken off the database.  If he doesn't and chooses to return the car to the road under his own or new ownership, he need do no more than apply for a change of keeper to move the registration out of trade and back into private ownership.  

Under the new environmental rules it is no longer possible for an owner to declare his own car as scrapped, he must transfer the registration to a licensed car breaker who is permitted to issue a Certificate of Destruction.