Which? safety alert on children's car seat

powerful_Rogue

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

flowerapplerabbit said:

Came on to ask this exact same question. The minimum legal requirement only crash tests seats at 30mph, pretty poor really. Which! test at 40mph so if a car seat has failed this then it isn't a safe product, regardless of the company's obligations. They really should show a lot of good will in this situation. Am very interested to hear how you get on jjjggg333, please do let us know. 

Why should they? They have sold a seat that meets the legal requirment. The time to ask questions is before you purchase, not after then expect money back.

We couldn't ask a question about a safety test that hadn't been carried out - new information has come to light.

Whether or not they should or shouldn't legally (we understand they don't have to), I'm not happy to put my young child in a seat that is dangerous at 40mph. And so it seems sensible to ask the question.

Of course you could have. You could have contacted Chicco and asked them about safety tests they conducted on the seat etc. How does the seat become dangerous at 40mph? Also all crashes are different.

Can't be that much of an issue if Which? make you pay to see this information.

TBH in the run up to the birth of my first child, trying to consider all the different crash scenarios and the need to contact manufacturers of car seats to ask how their seats perform at 10mph quicker than the legal requirements had not occurred to me.

So you could have gained the information, but didn't. Again, if this is such a concern, why do Which? not make this information available to all, not just those that pay a monthly fee?

Presuming you have now binned the car seat and purchased a replacement that has been tested to 40mph? However, what when Which? carry out a test saying it's no good at 50mph?

The info wouldn't have been available. And yes, I have purchased a replacement - a Swedish brand which adheres to the highest of any standard. This should ensure it also passes any Which? safety test in future.

Swedish Plus Test

Many of our Extended Rear-Facing (ERF) seats have the additional Swedish Plus Test Approval. This test is not mandatory. It is conducted at a higher speed and shorter braking distance than the European standards ECE R44 and R129 to represent a more realistic crash situation. 

What have you done with your old car seat now?

I've stored it at home in case Pramworld ask for me to return it, if my persistence pays off.

So it's an actual return for a refund you are looking for?

You could have purchased a car seat that had the 'Swedish Plus Test originally.

Yes, I'd like to return the seat for a refund or voucher.

I wish I'd bought a car seat that had the Swedish Plus Test. As I say, the new information from Which? is not something I was aware of until very recently. I assumed car seat safety was taken more seriously than the regulations suggest.

So who have you actually approached, just  the manufacturer or the retailer? Not that it will make much difference.

Car seat safety is taken seriously, that's why we have legal requirments attached to them.

The retailer who have been in contact with the manufacturer, as they understand my concern.

Legal requirements doesn't necessarily translate into safe. Hence why a car seat can be safe at 30mph and dangerous at 40mph - quite a fine line there.

How has that seat all of a sudden became dangerous?

So a Swedish Test Plus car seat in a 1983 Austin Metro is safer then a Chicco Seat4Fix in a 2021 BMW X3?

"Our lab experts spotted issues during the front impact crash test which caused the dummy to twist too much to the side."

Just to be clear - can you understand why I wouldn't feel comfortable putting my baby in a seat that's been issued a safety alert? It's just my request for a refund that you're taking issue with, correct?

Of course, but the fact remains, it still meets all the legal requirments for a car seat. Maybe your time would be better used lobbying your MP in regards to the safety standards.

I thought we'd established I understand that it meets legal requirements? Your suggestion of lobbying for higher standards is a sensible one - getting a safer car seat in the meantime and a refund for my un-safe one is my personal priority

Clearly not, as you keep calling it unsafe.

jjjggg333

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

jjjggg333 said:

powerful_Rogue said:

flowerapplerabbit said:

Came on to ask this exact same question. The minimum legal requirement only crash tests seats at 30mph, pretty poor really. Which! test at 40mph so if a car seat has failed this then it isn't a safe product, regardless of the company's obligations. They really should show a lot of good will in this situation. Am very interested to hear how you get on jjjggg333, please do let us know. 

Why should they? They have sold a seat that meets the legal requirment. The time to ask questions is before you purchase, not after then expect money back.

We couldn't ask a question about a safety test that hadn't been carried out - new information has come to light.

Whether or not they should or shouldn't legally (we understand they don't have to), I'm not happy to put my young child in a seat that is dangerous at 40mph. And so it seems sensible to ask the question.

Of course you could have. You could have contacted Chicco and asked them about safety tests they conducted on the seat etc. How does the seat become dangerous at 40mph? Also all crashes are different.

Can't be that much of an issue if Which? make you pay to see this information.

TBH in the run up to the birth of my first child, trying to consider all the different crash scenarios and the need to contact manufacturers of car seats to ask how their seats perform at 10mph quicker than the legal requirements had not occurred to me.

So you could have gained the information, but didn't. Again, if this is such a concern, why do Which? not make this information available to all, not just those that pay a monthly fee?

Presuming you have now binned the car seat and purchased a replacement that has been tested to 40mph? However, what when Which? carry out a test saying it's no good at 50mph?

The info wouldn't have been available. And yes, I have purchased a replacement - a Swedish brand which adheres to the highest of any standard. This should ensure it also passes any Which? safety test in future.

Swedish Plus Test

Many of our Extended Rear-Facing (ERF) seats have the additional Swedish Plus Test Approval. This test is not mandatory. It is conducted at a higher speed and shorter braking distance than the European standards ECE R44 and R129 to represent a more realistic crash situation. 

What have you done with your old car seat now?

I've stored it at home in case Pramworld ask for me to return it, if my persistence pays off.

So it's an actual return for a refund you are looking for?

You could have purchased a car seat that had the 'Swedish Plus Test originally.

Yes, I'd like to return the seat for a refund or voucher.

I wish I'd bought a car seat that had the Swedish Plus Test. As I say, the new information from Which? is not something I was aware of until very recently. I assumed car seat safety was taken more seriously than the regulations suggest.

So who have you actually approached, just  the manufacturer or the retailer? Not that it will make much difference.

Car seat safety is taken seriously, that's why we have legal requirments attached to them.

The retailer who have been in contact with the manufacturer, as they understand my concern.

Legal requirements doesn't necessarily translate into safe. Hence why a car seat can be safe at 30mph and dangerous at 40mph - quite a fine line there.

How has that seat all of a sudden became dangerous?

So a Swedish Test Plus car seat in a 1983 Austin Metro is safer then a Chicco Seat4Fix in a 2021 BMW X3?

"Our lab experts spotted issues during the front impact crash test which caused the dummy to twist too much to the side."

Just to be clear - can you understand why I wouldn't feel comfortable putting my baby in a seat that's been issued a safety alert? It's just my request for a refund that you're taking issue with, correct?

Of course, but the fact remains, it still meets all the legal requirments for a car seat. Maybe your time would be better used lobbying your MP in regards to the safety standards.

I thought we'd established I understand that it meets legal requirements? Your suggestion of lobbying for higher standards is a sensible one - getting a safer car seat in the meantime and a refund for my un-safe one is my personal priority

Clearly not, as you keep calling it unsafe.

Legal and safe are not interchangeable terms

flowerapplerabbit

It is unsafe! You trust that the bare minimum legal requirements will always keep you safe? Good luck to you

born_again

You are aware that, The Swedish Plus Test is so tough that only rear facing car seats can pass it.
They test at 56 KPH which is only 35 MPH

So is no use for a older child.

https://axkid.com/uk/articles/plus-test-the-toughest-crash-test-in-the-world/?utm_term=&utm_campaign=Amanda+AI+-+Axkid+-+DSA+-+GB&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=8421572282&hsa_cam=14868402180&hsa_grp=133324498492&hsa_ad=550235700883&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=dsa-832989539453&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=CjwKCAjwlcaRBhBYEiwAK341jaCpTG2AfE7W_SMqb7vt_XcFRN9CtRlJ2tUtuKCTlduZTCsjqXKfChoC02gQAvD_BwE

jjjggg333

Manufacturer Nuna said this in response to an indentical situation a few years ago, which sums it up perfectly. They could understand my point of view, unsure why a few people on here can't:

'The German Automobile Club, ADAC, has performed an extreme test, which is not recognised by the UK Department of Transport, or any other standard the industry is asked to comply with.

'We will not be conducting a product recall unless the recognised relevant national authorities deem the seat is unsafe.

'However, ultimately, what matters is our customers’ peace of mind – therefore, we are offering full refunds to any customer that does not feel that the rigorous UK government standards are sufficient.

jjjggg333

born_again said:

You are aware that, The Swedish Plus Test is so tough that only rear facing car seats can pass it.
They test at 56 KPH which is only 35 MPH

So is no use for a older child.

That's great as far as I'm concerned - the Axkid seat I've purchased allows rear facing up to 7 years old, much older than most car seats (rear facing is 5x safer than front facing). I feel much more comfortable using the seat. My previous seat failed Which?'s test on rear facing for young children.

ssparks2003

As far as I can see, the original  seat purchased was tested to R44/04. The newer seat was tested to ECE R44/04 and ECE R129. The two tests are exactly the same, the difference in the number of sensors on the crash dummy. 

The frontal testing is conducted at 32 mph, the rear testing is conducted at 18 mph, and the additional side testing is conducted at 15 mph.

The Swedish test is an additional test and optional test that the manufacturers may pay to have done if they feel it is of benefit to them, however there is no regulatory obligation even in Sweden to have this test done. The test is completed at the heady speeds of 36mph, yes a whole 4mph faster and heavier breaking, so slower the the 40mph test of which, though I don't know what there test practice was.

A lot of the non regulatory tests could be seen to a greater or lesser extent as marketing spin rather than a substantially safer product. After all a adult seat is a car is tested at 70mph, so I assume for safety parents never go on motorways.....

ssparks2003

jjjggg333 said:

I thought we'd established I understand that it meets legal requirements? Your suggestion of lobbying for higher standards is a sensible one - getting a safer car seat in the meantime and a refund for my un-safe one is my personal priority

But the original seat is not unsafe, it might be less safe (it also might not have been tested) but is not unsafe

born_again

I'm sure your 7 YO is going to love sitting facing backwards... Well it will give their friends a good laugh.

As we say in the biking world a good fitting helmet with a lower test result is better than a badly fitting helmet that has top marks.

jjjggg333

born_again said:

I'm sure your 7 YO is going to love sitting facing backwards... Well it will give their friends a good laugh.

As we say in the biking world a good fitting helmet with a lower test result is better than a badly fitting helmet that has top marks.

OK. Bizarre