Diagnostic Fee - Fair?

motorguy

Ibrahim5 said:

The commonest fault I fix are rear parking sensors. Just plug in and it tells you which one to replace. Less than £10 on eBay and it's fixed. Go to the dealership and it's £300 with brand new sensor, diagnostics and labour.

So you dont charge labour and overhead costs?

And you dont see that a main dealer wont want to rely on some cheap spurious chinese part found on ebay?

motorguy

Ibrahim5 said:

Most modern cars have got a display which is quite capable of displaying all the data. No need for an interface really. So it could come up with "fault on front left ABS sensor" on the display in front of the driver. I think the dealer would then have more trouble charging £150 for reading the display. I can't imagine that happening soon 

Fine if thats what it turns out to be.  What if thats merely a symptom of another fault?  And what use is the information to the driver of the car anyway?  It still requires the driver to book the car in to a mechanic.

motorguy

Ibrahim5 said:

motorguy said:

Ibrahim5 said:

I would have thought that a £3.95 Bluetooth scanner would be adequate for diagnosing ABS faults. Your phone has got plenty of processing power and the data provided through OBD2 is relatively slow.

And then what?

The O/P has a code and doesnt know what it means and cant / doesnt want to do the repair themselves anyway?

"Just get a code reader and solve it yourself" posts remind me of -

With an ABS sensor fault you will have something like Throttle 50% Revs 2000 Gear 5. 3 wheels 50mph. 4th wheel 0mph. It's pretty obvious if 3 wheels are going at 50mph the fault is with the sensor registering 0mph. OK it might be the wire to the sensor but that always goes through your mind anyway. Not rocket science.

Its not rocket science if you're a mechanic or have knowledge of that.  But what would any of that mean to Joe Public who neither knows nor cares about it - i'd say for most people that may as well be in Greek.  And whether you realise it or not, theres a fair bit of background knowledge required there to get you to that point and to interpret what youre seeing.  And then, as you've admitted yourself you havent got an absolute that its the sensor.

So what would Joe Public do with that info? - take the car to a mechanic and "tell" him to replace that ABS sensor?  Fine, but then it turns out to be the wire, which the mechanic noticed before he did the work but the smart assed customer had tried to tell him his job and so he did what he was told?

Ibrahim5

There weren't 'diagnostic' fees in the 1970s. They were only introduced when cars had computers on them. The cars in those days didn't have screens so the data had to be transferred across to something with a screen to display data. Any basic PC or phone is capable. Just need an interface. As long as it transmits data it's fine. Even if it only costs £3.95. The software is often free or very cheap. There was never any need for expensive computers or large fees to use them. All invented by auto industry to make money. Just talking to people you realise how successful they have been. People really are convinced that they are too complicated even though they use computers everyday without fear.

motorguy

Ibrahim5 said:

There weren't 'diagnostic' fees in the 1970s. They were only introduced when cars had computers on them. The cars in those days didn't have screens so the data had to be transferred across to something with a screen to display data. Any basic PC or phone is capable. Just need an interface. As long as it transmits data it's fine. Even if it only costs £3.95. The software is often free or very cheap. There was never any need for expensive computers or large fees to use them. All invented by auto industry to make money. Just talking to people you realise how successful they have been. People really are convinced that they are too complicated even though they use computers everyday without fear.

"Diagnostic" fees did exist in the 1970s because you still paid the mechanic to tell you what was wrong with the car, only then it was about him trying to find out what was wrong with an almost purely mechanical engine.  He would have included the time to diagnose the problem in his overall cost to resolve.

We have a situation now whereby cars an awful lot more complex but there are diagnosis tools are available to assist with that - almost all of which involve plugging in to the cars computer system read and then interpreting what the car is telling you.

Whilst you keep banging this drum about diagnostic tools being available "free" or close to free as the basis for your "argument" that diagnostics should be free, you're wholly overlooking everything else thats involved.

• Book the car in by speaking to service reception (staff to be paid for, heat, office / building to be paid for, business rates, electric, phone systems, computer systems to support all of that)
• Car arrives in for the work, check the car in with service reception (staff to be paid for, heat, office / building to be paid for, business rates, electric, phone systems, computer systems to support all of that)
• Wait on the car in the waiting area (waiting room to be paid for, heat, business rates, electric, etc). 
• Perhaps avail of their "free" coffee and biscuits (all to be paid for).
• Mechanic drives the car in to the workshop (workshop space to be paid for), connects it up (computer system diagnostics to be paid for), reads the codes, makes the diagnosis, writes up the diagnosis, presents the diagnosis back to service department (this all takes time).
• Engagement again with service reception (staff to be paid for, heat, office / building to be paid for, business rates, electric, phone systems, computer systems to support all of that) so that they articulate back to you whats wrong with the car and what it will cost to resolve it.

All of this amounts to time spent and overhead costs accrued, which whilst not charged to them on an hourly basis can be broken out on a "per hour" basis as a standing charge.  It is also not unreasonable for them to have a profit margin on that.

And all of the above - particularly the mechanics time - means he cant be revenue earning on anything else while hes doing it.

Sometimes it will be "just a sensor" but they cant know that to be true until they plug it all in to the same systems that they use to diagnose complex problems too.  So its not like they can say "well this is likely an o2 sensor, so i'll just use my £3.95 ebay code reader" and even if they did, the bulk of the above standing charges would apply anyway.

Anyone can of course opt to either

(a) find some back street mechanic with the aforementioned cheap code reader and hope he gets to the problem for you or
(b) attempt to do it yourself.

BUT, i dont think anyone can walk up to a main dealers and not expect to be charged for the service they receive.

Robbo66

Ibrahim5 said:

There weren't 'diagnostic' fees in the 1970s. They were only introduced when cars had computers on them. The cars in those days didn't have screens so the data had to be transferred across to something with a screen to display data. Any basic PC or phone is capable. Just need an interface. As long as it transmits data it's fine. Even if it only costs £3.95. The software is often free or very cheap. There was never any need for expensive computers or large fees to use them. All invented by auto industry to make money. Just talking to people you realise how successful they have been. People really are convinced that they are too complicated even though they use computers everyday without fear.

You seem to be living in your own world, a very good friend of mine is an accredited master diagnostic tech for a large manufacturer, he is also registered with various motor agencies as that, this qualification has then the best part of 25 years of training and exams so when he works on a car you are paying for his knowledge,  training and experience and I'm quite sure their diag computer he used costs many thousands of pounds to buy and keep undated.

Ibrahim5

Software is like that. Linux is free. Windows more. Apple extortionate. You can charge what you like.

Ibrahim5

I have always solved my car's problems with free software. Never paid a penny.

motorguy

Ibrahim5 said:

I have always solved my car's problems with free software. Never paid a penny.

Good for you.

That doesnt mean that someone taking a car to a main dealer can get their problems solved free.

They provide a service, people pay for the service.

motorguy

Ibrahim5 said:

Software is like that. Linux is free. Windows more. Apple extortionate. You can charge what you like.

Software is not like that.

Diagnostic software is not free.  Do you work for free?