Parking Ticket in Supermarket Car Park

Trainerman

Yes, but to get back on track, the car was not parked for excess time

KeithP

RogerBareford said:

Coupon-mad said:

sarahj1990 said:

To be exact I was parked in the car park for 2 hours 10 mins and 47 seconds so I did break their rules.

No, you didn't.

Not only was the car not actually parked for over 2 hours, but what makes you believe the 47 seconds timing?

Frustrates me when people accept the timings and repeat them as if they are true.  ANPR in/out cameras cannot possibly be that accurate that they are synchronised to the second.  They aren't!

You did not break any rules.

Even a cheap crystal oscillator will be accurate to ±20 seconds a month. Over a period of 2 hours that equates to ±0.06 seconds so actually the time will be pretty spot on because all it does is record the time the car enters and the car leaves and calculates the difference which means all that matters is it's internal accuracy in this instance.

But even over longer periods considering that it will be connected to a network (that's how they get the data from the camera) it will be synchronised with a time server daily so won't ever be more than 2 seconds out over any time period.

If any crystal oscillators are involved, there will be two of them - one dealing with the entrance camera and one dealing with the exit camera. 
It is the synchronisation of these two devices that is called into doubt.

Jenni_D

RogerBareford said:

Coupon-mad said:

sarahj1990 said:

To be exact I was parked in the car park for 2 hours 10 mins and 47 seconds so I did break their rules.

No, you didn't.

Not only was the car not actually parked for over 2 hours, but what makes you believe the 47 seconds timing?

Frustrates me when people accept the timings and repeat them as if they are true.  ANPR in/out cameras cannot possibly be that accurate that they are synchronised to the second.  They aren't!

You did not break any rules.

Even a cheap crystal oscillator will be accurate to ±20 seconds a month. Over a period of 2 hours that equates to ±0.06 seconds so actually the time will be pretty spot on because all it does is record the time the car enters and the car leaves and calculates the difference which means all that matters is it's internal accuracy in this instance.

But even over longer periods considering that it will be connected to a network (that's how they get the data from the camera) it will be synchronised with a time server daily so won't ever be more than 2 seconds out over any time period.

That assumes the ANPR camera clocks are synched between them (In and Out), and that the camera clocks are synched with the pay terminals clocks. Accuracy of crystal oscillators is utterly irrelevant if the core time settings are different to begin with. 🙄

RogerBareford

KeithP said:

RogerBareford said:

Coupon-mad said:

sarahj1990 said:

To be exact I was parked in the car park for 2 hours 10 mins and 47 seconds so I did break their rules.

No, you didn't.

Not only was the car not actually parked for over 2 hours, but what makes you believe the 47 seconds timing?

Frustrates me when people accept the timings and repeat them as if they are true.  ANPR in/out cameras cannot possibly be that accurate that they are synchronised to the second.  They aren't!

You did not break any rules.

Even a cheap crystal oscillator will be accurate to ±20 seconds a month. Over a period of 2 hours that equates to ±0.06 seconds so actually the time will be pretty spot on because all it does is record the time the car enters and the car leaves and calculates the difference which means all that matters is it's internal accuracy in this instance.

But even over longer periods considering that it will be connected to a network (that's how they get the data from the camera) it will be synchronised with a time server daily so won't ever be more than 2 seconds out over any time period.

If any crystal oscillators are involved, there will be two of them - one dealing with the entrance camera and one dealing with the exit camera. 
It is the synchronisation of these two devices that is called into doubt.

I was thinking of a system where the same camera is used for in and out but if different one's are used then i don't see why two cameras on the same network can't be within 1 second of each other.

As i'm typing this i have looked at my smartwatch, my pc clock and my two mobile phones and they are all within 1 second of each other on the time and they are on three different networks. So have a several cameras and other equipment on the same network is not at all difficult to keep synchronised.

Jenni_D said:

RogerBareford said:

Coupon-mad said:

sarahj1990 said:

To be exact I was parked in the car park for 2 hours 10 mins and 47 seconds so I did break their rules.

No, you didn't.

Not only was the car not actually parked for over 2 hours, but what makes you believe the 47 seconds timing?

Frustrates me when people accept the timings and repeat them as if they are true.  ANPR in/out cameras cannot possibly be that accurate that they are synchronised to the second.  They aren't!

You did not break any rules.

Even a cheap crystal oscillator will be accurate to ±20 seconds a month. Over a period of 2 hours that equates to ±0.06 seconds so actually the time will be pretty spot on because all it does is record the time the car enters and the car leaves and calculates the difference which means all that matters is it's internal accuracy in this instance.

But even over longer periods considering that it will be connected to a network (that's how they get the data from the camera) it will be synchronised with a time server daily so won't ever be more than 2 seconds out over any time period.

That assumes the ANPR camera clocks are synched between them (In and Out), and that the camera clocks are synched with the pay terminals clocks. Accuracy of crystal oscillators is utterly irrelevant if the core time settings are different to begin with. 🙄

As my reply above i was assuming the same camera being used for in and out but no reason they can't be all within a second of each other.

KeithP

RogerBareford said:

KeithP said:

RogerBareford said:

Coupon-mad said:

sarahj1990 said:

To be exact I was parked in the car park for 2 hours 10 mins and 47 seconds so I did break their rules.

No, you didn't.

Not only was the car not actually parked for over 2 hours, but what makes you believe the 47 seconds timing?

Frustrates me when people accept the timings and repeat them as if they are true.  ANPR in/out cameras cannot possibly be that accurate that they are synchronised to the second.  They aren't!

You did not break any rules.

Even a cheap crystal oscillator will be accurate to ±20 seconds a month. Over a period of 2 hours that equates to ±0.06 seconds so actually the time will be pretty spot on because all it does is record the time the car enters and the car leaves and calculates the difference which means all that matters is it's internal accuracy in this instance.

But even over longer periods considering that it will be connected to a network (that's how they get the data from the camera) it will be synchronised with a time server daily so won't ever be more than 2 seconds out over any time period.

If any crystal oscillators are involved, there will be two of them - one dealing with the entrance camera and one dealing with the exit camera. 
It is the synchronisation of these two devices that is called into doubt.

I was thinking of a system where the same camera is used for in and out but if different one's are used then i don't see why two cameras on the same network can't be within 1 second of each other.

And neither do I. Of course it can be done.

But, and it's a big but...
...why would a rogue parking company want to do that?

RogerBareford said:

KeithP said:

RogerBareford said:

Coupon-mad said:

sarahj1990 said:

To be exact I was parked in the car park for 2 hours 10 mins and 47 seconds so I did break their rules.

No, you didn't.

Not only was the car not actually parked for over 2 hours, but what makes you believe the 47 seconds timing?

Frustrates me when people accept the timings and repeat them as if they are true.  ANPR in/out cameras cannot possibly be that accurate that they are synchronised to the second.  They aren't!

You did not break any rules.

Even a cheap crystal oscillator will be accurate to ±20 seconds a month. Over a period of 2 hours that equates to ±0.06 seconds so actually the time will be pretty spot on because all it does is record the time the car enters and the car leaves and calculates the difference which means all that matters is it's internal accuracy in this instance.

But even over longer periods considering that it will be connected to a network (that's how they get the data from the camera) it will be synchronised with a time server daily so won't ever be more than 2 seconds out over any time period.

If any crystal oscillators are involved, there will be two of them - one dealing with the entrance camera and one dealing with the exit camera. 
It is the synchronisation of these two devices that is called into doubt.

As i'm typing this i have looked at my smartwatch, my pc clock and my two mobile phones and they are all within 1 second of each other on the time and they are on three different networks. So have a several cameras and other equipment on the same network is not at all difficult to keep synchronised.

As above, They will make far more profit if they are not synchronised so why would even try?

RogerBareford

KeithP said:

RogerBareford said:

KeithP said:

RogerBareford said:

Coupon-mad said:

sarahj1990 said:

To be exact I was parked in the car park for 2 hours 10 mins and 47 seconds so I did break their rules.

No, you didn't.

Not only was the car not actually parked for over 2 hours, but what makes you believe the 47 seconds timing?

Frustrates me when people accept the timings and repeat them as if they are true.  ANPR in/out cameras cannot possibly be that accurate that they are synchronised to the second.  They aren't!

You did not break any rules.

Even a cheap crystal oscillator will be accurate to ±20 seconds a month. Over a period of 2 hours that equates to ±0.06 seconds so actually the time will be pretty spot on because all it does is record the time the car enters and the car leaves and calculates the difference which means all that matters is it's internal accuracy in this instance.

But even over longer periods considering that it will be connected to a network (that's how they get the data from the camera) it will be synchronised with a time server daily so won't ever be more than 2 seconds out over any time period.

If any crystal oscillators are involved, there will be two of them - one dealing with the entrance camera and one dealing with the exit camera. 
It is the synchronisation of these two devices that is called into doubt.

I was thinking of a system where the same camera is used for in and out but if different one's are used then i don't see why two cameras on the same network can't be within 1 second of each other.

And neither do I. Of course it can be done.

But, and it's a big but...
...why would a rogue parking company want to do that?

They will make far more profit if they are not synchronised.

Well synchronising within a second is a pretty standard thing so they would have to purposely make them synchronise poorly and not only that they would also have to make sure they are poorly synchronised in the right way to benefit them because if they leave it to chance then it's just as likely the time between them would be lower than actual.

Considering they don't make more profit if they are not synchronised because it could go either way you are suggesting they do this on purpose. Why would they risk getting caught doing this and invalidating all PCN they sent out previously for overstays when they could just do it properly without risk of future litigation?

KeithP

RogerBareford said:

KeithP said:

RogerBareford said:

KeithP said:

RogerBareford said:

Coupon-mad said:

sarahj1990 said:

To be exact I was parked in the car park for 2 hours 10 mins and 47 seconds so I did break their rules.

No, you didn't.

Not only was the car not actually parked for over 2 hours, but what makes you believe the 47 seconds timing?

Frustrates me when people accept the timings and repeat them as if they are true.  ANPR in/out cameras cannot possibly be that accurate that they are synchronised to the second.  They aren't!

You did not break any rules.

Even a cheap crystal oscillator will be accurate to ±20 seconds a month. Over a period of 2 hours that equates to ±0.06 seconds so actually the time will be pretty spot on because all it does is record the time the car enters and the car leaves and calculates the difference which means all that matters is it's internal accuracy in this instance.

But even over longer periods considering that it will be connected to a network (that's how they get the data from the camera) it will be synchronised with a time server daily so won't ever be more than 2 seconds out over any time period.

If any crystal oscillators are involved, there will be two of them - one dealing with the entrance camera and one dealing with the exit camera. 
It is the synchronisation of these two devices that is called into doubt.

I was thinking of a system where the same camera is used for in and out but if different one's are used then i don't see why two cameras on the same network can't be within 1 second of each other.

And neither do I. Of course it can be done.

But, and it's a big but...
...why would a rogue parking company want to do that?

They will make far more profit if they are not synchronised.

...you are suggesting they do this on purpose.

Yes.           

Jenni_D

Why would a parking company fake photos to allow them to issue PCNs for transgressions that didn't even happen? Surely none of them would be stupid enough to do that ..... oh, hello UKPC!

The term rogue parking company wasn't used simply for effect.

FrankCannon

Here's a case of an ANPR camera being set incorrectly ;

https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/tunbridge-wells-shoppers-anger-after-3724770

This is an un-regulated industry - nobody is checking up on their business practices currently. Most people simply pay up as they think these are fines, and it's only a few steadfast folk who stand up to these people.

RogerBareford

FrankCannon said:

Here's a case of an ANPR camera being set incorrectly ;

https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/tunbridge-wells-shoppers-anger-after-3724770

This is an un-regulated industry - nobody is checking up on their business practices currently. Most people simply pay up as they think these are fines, and it's only a few steadfast folk who stand up to these people.

So your suggesting that the time there was set incorrectly on purpose because that obviously would be ridiculous in that scenario.