Bad advice for funeral plot

born_again

Manxman_in_exile said:

Are people here saying that you can't dispose of deceased's ashes as you like?!?!

My wife and I have said we want our ashes scattered at a particular location.  Can't you do that?  I certainly helped scatter my mother's ashes at her favourite location at home in the Isle of Man.  Admittedly the law might be different over there, but would it have been unlawful or illegal to do that in the UK?

And what's to stop someone's ashes being scattered over an existing grave?  Who would know you'd done it? I don't understand the problem.  (Unless people are wanting to bury ashes in an urn... but why would you?).

Apologies if the above seems a bit insensitive, but I'm at a loss to understand the issue surrounding ashes.  I could understand that authorities definitely don't want you burying corpses clandestinely in existing graves - no matter who owns it - but scattering ashes?

https://www.dignityfunerals.co.uk/advice/scattering-ashes-laws-and-regulations/

elsien

MobileSaver said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

The only issue I could see would be if you wanted to dig a hole and "bury" the ashes while still in the urn.  But why would you do that? 

Sandtree said:

A quick google shows that burying the ashes, irrespective of urn, rather than scattering them,

I have to be honest that until today I didn't even realise that burying ashes was a thing; I thought ashes were always scattered or kept on display in an urn. 

Going off topic slightly, talking to a neighbour who does landscaping. Lady asked him to dig a proper path, he finds urn, enquires of lady what it might be.
”Oh that’ll be my husband. I’d forgotten where I put him. “ 

With the OP and depending on who owns the plot now, I’d be tempted to leave it till they’ve forgotten I asked the question then turn up at a quiet time with a plant that needs a big hole digging……

Sandtree

elsien said:

MobileSaver said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

The only issue I could see would be if you wanted to dig a hole and "bury" the ashes while still in the urn.  But why would you do that? 

Sandtree said:

A quick google shows that burying the ashes, irrespective of urn, rather than scattering them,

I have to be honest that until today I didn't even realise that burying ashes was a thing; I thought ashes were always scattered or kept on display in an urn. 

Going off topic slightly, talking to a neighbour who does landscaping. Lady asked him to dig a proper path, he finds urn, enquires of lady what it might be.
”Oh that’ll be my husband. I’d forgotten where I put him. “ 

Our odd job guy was digging up some plants and uncovered something wrapped in a blanket... not sure what he thought it was but he opened it to find our 4 year dead cat... never saw him again

Aylesbury_Duck

There are about 15 people dead for every one us alive, so we're surrounded by detritus from the dead, albeit all in new forms - we are of course partly composed from recycled bits of the dead, and breathe their molecules in every day.

I respect the ways in which others wish to dispose of and commemorate their relatives - each of us must do what feels right.  I have a purely dispassionate view of it, which helps me deal with it.  None of my dead relatives (those that have died in my lifetime) have graves, headstones, urns, ashes or anything commemorative.  For me, that's a blessing because it would "tie" me to something - would I feel torn about moving away from the area where the grave is?  How would I feel if a headstone/bench/plaque were damaged, vandalised or stolen?  What if I drop an urn?

Sandtree

Aylesbury_Duck said:

There are about 15 people dead for every one us alive, so we're surrounded by detritus from the dead, albeit all in new forms - we are of course partly composed from recycled bits of the dead, and breathe their molecules in every day.

I respect the ways in which others wish to dispose of and commemorate their relatives - each of us must do what feels right.  I have a purely dispassionate view of it, which helps me deal with it.  None of my dead relatives (those that have died in my lifetime) have graves, headstones, urns, ashes or anything commemorative.  For me, that's a blessing because it would "tie" me to something - would I feel torn about moving away from the area where the grave is?  How would I feel if a headstone/bench/plaque were damaged, vandalised or stolen?  What if I drop an urn?

Unless vaporisation has become a funeral option then presumably there is something somewhere which could be described as a grave or ashes even if you are not aware of their exact location. Not sure how long the bigger bone fragments that make up the ashes take to be "recycled" ?

Certainly being tied is a thing... even though only half of him is buried there my mother was torn when she wanted to move away from the area after retiring. She certainly did used to make occasional trips back too for several years (dont know now).

Personally dont give two hoots about my body or what would happen to those of loved ones, but will respect their wishes, but a big scary mausoleum would be nice (dont care if I am in it or not). Many a happy summer evening was spent in a the beer garden of pub that was an old vicerage with my parents as kid that used to spill out into the old grave yard and we'd scare ourselves with the cracked old tombs etc.

lincroft1710

Aylesbury_Duck said:

None of my dead relatives (those that have died in my lifetime) have graves, headstones, urns, ashes or anything commemorative.  For me, that's a blessing because it would "tie" me to something - would I feel torn about moving away from the area where the grave is?  How would I feel if a headstone/bench/plaque were damaged, vandalised or stolen?  What if I drop an urn?

My grandfather (who I hardly knew) died in 1958 and was buried in a cemetery somewhere in Birmingham. I don't know whether my grandmother ever visited the grave during the 4 years she survived him, but she was cremated rather than buried alongside him. So unless the cemetery authorities look after the graves, my grandfather's grave will have been neglected for nearly 65 years.

Manxman_in_exile

born_again said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Are people here saying that you can't dispose of deceased's ashes as you like?!?!

My wife and I have said we want our ashes scattered at a particular location.  Can't you do that?  I certainly helped scatter my mother's ashes at her favourite location at home in the Isle of Man.  Admittedly the law might be different over there, but would it have been unlawful or illegal to do that in the UK?

And what's to stop someone's ashes being scattered over an existing grave?  Who would know you'd done it? I don't understand the problem.  (Unless people are wanting to bury ashes in an urn... but why would you?).

Apologies if the above seems a bit insensitive, but I'm at a loss to understand the issue surrounding ashes.  I could understand that authorities definitely don't want you burying corpses clandestinely in existing graves - no matter who owns it - but scattering ashes?

https://www.dignityfunerals.co.uk/advice/scattering-ashes-laws-and-regulations/

I've only skimmed through that but it seems quite contradictory?

It starts by saying you might need permission to scatter in some places, but then asks the question can ashes be scattered anywhere and answers yes - they can subject, perhaps, to "guidance".

So unless there's a law there's nothing to actually prevent you scattering them anywhere?  And if there was a law, who's going to stop you?  Who will even know?

(Definition of a bad law - prohibiting something that can't be detected or enforced)

donnac2558

I went back and read the OP's opening post.

Her father bought the plot, not her, so why would she get a refund?

My body is going to medial research, forms filled in and witnessed.  Like another poster,   I don't care what happens to my body once I am dead.  You are just a piece of dead meat.

Raspberry_Queen

Ergates said:

Raspberry_Queen said:

Ergates said:

Just to be clear:

You're asking if you could reclaim the cost for purchasing the plot back in 1986?   The plot that your parents buried your grandparents ashes in?

Clearly not.  Your parents bought a funeral plot, then used it - your grandparents remains are in it.

Needlessly rude. If you have nothing nice to say then don't say it. This is supposed to be a friendly forum for advice. 

Nothing I said was even remotely rude.   Your question, however, is deeply offensive - you were asking about reclaiming money for the plot *where your grandparents are buried*.

There is nothing wrong with that. It's not for you to decide what is offensive for anyone else's family. The intention was for my grandparent's plot to be a family plot and ultimately for my dad (and probably aunt) to lay to rest with them. The plot was sold as being for 2 bodies and 4 or 6 urns. For the reasons stated in my OP, this original wish could not be fulfilled. This caused us unexpected confusion and distress, especially as my dad was so sensitive about death and was never able to get over his parents dying. It unexpectedly caused the funeral planning to take longer and caused us to have to debate on what to do and guess what he would have wanted.

I do not believe the situation was my parents' fault, they are/were not ones to take chances with this sort of thing. If they had had any idea that burying urns was supposed to be done "officially" in some manner they would have done it. They were always open about their intentions with whoever they spoke to, and it's not unreasonable to think that someone ought to have said "you shouldn't really do that". 

Raspberry_Queen

porkisnotmeat said:

Raspberry_Queen said:

Ergates said:

Just to be clear:

You're asking if you could reclaim the cost for purchasing the plot back in 1986?   The plot that your parents buried your grandparents ashes in?

Clearly not.  Your parents bought a funeral plot, then used it - your grandparents remains are in it.

Needlessly rude. If you have nothing nice to say then don't say it. This is supposed to be a friendly forum for advice. 

Just because you don't like the response (usually because it isn't what people want to hear) doesn't mean it isn't "nice."  It's neither "nice" or "nasty" because it just is what it is.

The biggest downfall of this forum is the idea that everyone has to be "nice", which appears to be interpreted as "tell me what I want to hear or else you're being mean."

The world doesn't work like that and although you can probably get the mods to delete posts and ban people if that's what you want, it doesn't make them wrong, or "not nice."

Basic politeness, especially to someone grieving, is not a "downfall". Don't act like this is a case of political correctness of wanting certain answers. This is not it. I was asking for informal legal advice, on a forum that describes itself as "friendly". I asked questions and the snarky response was not even an answer, which as later became clear were based on their own moralising judgements. I didn't think it was unreasonable to ask if we could have a refund for the plot, given that the plot couldn't actually be used as intended. My mother recalls the plot was sold as being for two bodies and 4 or 6 urns. It has two urns in and can't be used for any more, due to the lack of advice. (I was also wondering whether the law had changed and whether urn-burying was fully unofficial back in 1986). 

Just because a forum that you have chosen to join has a policy you don't like, doesn't mean that this policy is a "downfall".