Hierarchy of Road Users - 29th January 2022

ArchLen

MacPingu1986 said:

We can have a nice sensible discussion about Highway Code changes without bringing all sorts of false stereotypes about "cyclists" to encourage aggression... But just to set out some useful background info...

1) - Hi Viz doesn't actually have any practical effect on visibility and accident reduction (actually studies show it increases your collision risk as cars are more likely to perform dangerous close/punishment passes on riders that look better equipped) - if people can't see someone on a bicycle its usually because they didn't look in the first place. Lights are already a legal requirement at night. 
2) - E scooters are already illegal outside of certain trials.
3) - Pavement cycling shouldn't happen but it's just not a material problem
4) - Cars run red lights at a rate not much lower than bicycles (around 10% against 15%) and do it far more dangerously when they do. "low level" traffic offences are a problem for all types of road users - no need to encourage hostility against people on bicycles by suggesting its a special cycling problem.
5) - "Road tax" hasn't existed since the late 1930s, - what's paid is a pollution based levy, with various vehicles already benefiting from exemptions etc... Roads are funded out of general taxation, so that mostly your Income tax, NI, Council tax & VAT. 
6) - Cycling isn't subject to compulsory insurance because the risk of harm is so low - similarly to how "pedestrian insurance" isn't compulsory. Ditto re license plates.

Correct on every point, well said. Why a big chunk of the UK populace is so anti cycling I do not know. Given the level of congestion on the roads we should be doing all we can to alleviate the issue by encouraging more cycling. Everyone who cycles is one less car on the road. 

Herzlos

The anti-cyclist seems to be a gutter rag outrage machine, coupled with a bit of pettiness about either being stuck in traffic and passed by a bicycle or being stuck behind a bicycle for 11 seconds on an empty back road. They fail to realize that the bicycle is actually making their trip quicker, because there's 1 less car clogging the road up, and after overtaking the bicycle they'll almost certainly catch up to where they'd have been within moments anyway.

[Deleted User]

ArchLen said:

MacPingu1986 said:

We can have a nice sensible discussion about Highway Code changes without bringing all sorts of false stereotypes about "cyclists" to encourage aggression... But just to set out some useful background info...

1) - Hi Viz doesn't actually have any practical effect on visibility and accident reduction (actually studies show it increases your collision risk as cars are more likely to perform dangerous close/punishment passes on riders that look better equipped) - if people can't see someone on a bicycle its usually because they didn't look in the first place. Lights are already a legal requirement at night. 
2) - E scooters are already illegal outside of certain trials.
3) - Pavement cycling shouldn't happen but it's just not a material problem
4) - Cars run red lights at a rate not much lower than bicycles (around 10% against 15%) and do it far more dangerously when they do. "low level" traffic offences are a problem for all types of road users - no need to encourage hostility against people on bicycles by suggesting its a special cycling problem.
5) - "Road tax" hasn't existed since the late 1930s, - what's paid is a pollution based levy, with various vehicles already benefiting from exemptions etc... Roads are funded out of general taxation, so that mostly your Income tax, NI, Council tax & VAT. 
6) - Cycling isn't subject to compulsory insurance because the risk of harm is so low - similarly to how "pedestrian insurance" isn't compulsory. Ditto re license plates.

Correct on every point, well said. Why a big chunk of the UK populace is so anti cycling I do not know. Given the level of congestion on the roads we should be doing all we can to alleviate the issue by encouraging more cycling. Everyone who cycles is one less car on the road. 

They're anti-cycling because everyone has a selfish "me first" attitude - they need to use their car because reasons, everyone else should make allowances. It's not helped by woeful, overpriced, public transport and lack of viable halfway houses e.g. park and ride to cover people who aren't served well by public transport. People are also impatient and poor planners, leaving home with 5 minutes spare for a deadline when any number of delays could cause them to be late, but a rider is somehow the reason!

neilmcl

ArchLen said:

Car_54 said:

Hasn't the increased volume of traffic in itself made the test harder?
Can you give some examples of things that were once a fail but now a pass?

1) No, sitting in heavy traffic in city centres (where most test centres are located) on an already short test makes it easier than it was when people had to actually drive around their test route. Additionally cars are now much easier to drive due to the level of technological advancements made. 

2) Many things, for example going over the speed limit, sitting in the right hand lane on a dual carriageway, using the wrong gears, failing to use mirrors correctly and at appropriate times, moving off without lights on in the dark. The list goes on. This data is readily available from the DVSA via freedom of information requests, or speak to anyone inside the industry. I.e. a reputable instructor or examiner. 

Such as? As far as I know the way you steer, change gear, accelerate, brake, check mirrors etc hasn't changed in all the years since I've been driving, unless you're talking about an EV of course. All the techie gadgets cars have these days doesn't make the act of driving itself any easier.

ArchLen

neilmcl said:

ArchLen said:

Car_54 said:

Hasn't the increased volume of traffic in itself made the test harder?
Can you give some examples of things that were once a fail but now a pass?

1) No, sitting in heavy traffic in city centres (where most test centres are located) on an already short test makes it easier than it was when people had to actually drive around their test route. Additionally cars are now much easier to drive due to the level of technological advancements made. 

2) Many things, for example going over the speed limit, sitting in the right hand lane on a dual carriageway, using the wrong gears, failing to use mirrors correctly and at appropriate times, moving off without lights on in the dark. The list goes on. This data is readily available from the DVSA via freedom of information requests, or speak to anyone inside the industry. I.e. a reputable instructor or examiner. 

Such as? As far as I know the way you steer, change gear, accelerate, brake, check mirrors etc hasn't changed in all the years since I've been driving, unless you're talking about an EV of course. All the techie gadgets cars have these days doesn't make the act of driving itself any easier.

Traffic sign reading dashboards displaying the speed limits, lane departure systems, automatic parking, reversing cameras, auto braking, auto hill hold, stop/start, auto lights/wipers, blind spot warning systems.

 Hardly an exhaustive list,;but there are numerous gadgets which make driving easier, certainly for new drivers who will come to rely on them... And then find they cannot afford a car with them on!

neilmcl

ArchLen said:

neilmcl said:

ArchLen said:

Car_54 said:

Hasn't the increased volume of traffic in itself made the test harder?
Can you give some examples of things that were once a fail but now a pass?

1) No, sitting in heavy traffic in city centres (where most test centres are located) on an already short test makes it easier than it was when people had to actually drive around their test route. Additionally cars are now much easier to drive due to the level of technological advancements made. 

2) Many things, for example going over the speed limit, sitting in the right hand lane on a dual carriageway, using the wrong gears, failing to use mirrors correctly and at appropriate times, moving off without lights on in the dark. The list goes on. This data is readily available from the DVSA via freedom of information requests, or speak to anyone inside the industry. I.e. a reputable instructor or examiner. 

Such as? As far as I know the way you steer, change gear, accelerate, brake, check mirrors etc hasn't changed in all the years since I've been driving, unless you're talking about an EV of course. All the techie gadgets cars have these days doesn't make the act of driving itself any easier.

Traffic sign reading dashboards displaying the speed limits, lane departure systems, automatic parking, reversing cameras, auto braking, auto hill hold, stop/start, auto lights/wipers, blind spot warning systems.

 Hardly an exhaustive list,;but there are numerous gadgets which make driving easier, certainly for new drivers who will come to rely on them... And then find they cannot afford a car with them on!

Non of which make it easier to pass a driving test. Yes there are plenty of gadgets to makes things more convenient (I wouldn't say easier) but the fundamentals of driving a car remain the same, in fact I'd argue that some of these "technological advancements" can actually make driving more distracting, and therefore potentially dangerous. I wouldn't say it's a good think for new drivers coming to rely on gadgets to drive, in fact quite the opposite.

Grumpy_chap

Grey_Critic said:

Personally I try to give cyclists room but my real concern is that there is no rule that says **Cyclists should be clearly visible** Many are with Hi-Viz vests and proper lights both day and night but many are not. 

I always try to give cyclists room but it is made harder by the absence, in practice, of a consensus where the cyclist should best position themselves.  When in a city area with high levels of congestion, some cyclist are between car and pavement, so I manoeuvre towards the centre of the road slightly to give space.  Then the next cyclist is on the middle of the road passing the cars, but I can't simply move back in to the pavement.

ArchLen

neilmcl said:

ArchLen said:

neilmcl said:

ArchLen said:

Car_54 said:

Hasn't the increased volume of traffic in itself made the test harder?
Can you give some examples of things that were once a fail but now a pass?

1) No, sitting in heavy traffic in city centres (where most test centres are located) on an already short test makes it easier than it was when people had to actually drive around their test route. Additionally cars are now much easier to drive due to the level of technological advancements made. 

2) Many things, for example going over the speed limit, sitting in the right hand lane on a dual carriageway, using the wrong gears, failing to use mirrors correctly and at appropriate times, moving off without lights on in the dark. The list goes on. This data is readily available from the DVSA via freedom of information requests, or speak to anyone inside the industry. I.e. a reputable instructor or examiner. 

Such as? As far as I know the way you steer, change gear, accelerate, brake, check mirrors etc hasn't changed in all the years since I've been driving, unless you're talking about an EV of course. All the techie gadgets cars have these days doesn't make the act of driving itself any easier.

Traffic sign reading dashboards displaying the speed limits, lane departure systems, automatic parking, reversing cameras, auto braking, auto hill hold, stop/start, auto lights/wipers, blind spot warning systems.

 Hardly an exhaustive list,;but there are numerous gadgets which make driving easier, certainly for new drivers who will come to rely on them... And then find they cannot afford a car with them on!

Non of which make it easier to pass a driving test. Yes there are plenty of gadgets to makes things more convenient (I wouldn't say easier) but the fundamentals of driving a car remain the same, in fact I'd argue that some of these "technological advancements" can actually make driving more distracting, and therefore potentially dangerous. I wouldn't say it's a good think for new drivers coming to rely on gadgets to drive, in fact quite the opposite.

In your opinion perhaps, but I would argue that all of the above factually make driving easier and therefore passing the test equally is made easier. You are therefore wrong. 

Let's take the automatic parking brake as an example. When a learner stalls the car moving off on a steep incline, the automatic parking brake prevents roll back. In cars without this, the driver would need to manually engage the parking brake to prevent rolling back. In a test situation, because learners are by and large not now taught to use the parking brake, this would probably result in a fail if they did not have an automatic parking brake because they probably won't react in time to prevent a pedestrian or vehicle behind being rolled into. 

That is one example but there are many more. 

Nofinway

Grey_Critic said:

I have read reports that *some* cyclists are claiming they are now in charge on the roads. It is to be hoped that it is all mouth and no trousers or we are going to see lots of bodies littering the road. Personally I try to give cyclists room but my real concern is that there is no rule that says **Cyclists should be clearly visible** Many are with Hi-Viz vests and proper lights both day and night but many are not. We already complain about the Electric Scooters that are being ridden illegally which from personal observation the Police ignore The cyclists for whom pavements and Red lights are just so much street furniture and are ignored - the Police ignore them now so how are they going to enforce this *New* Highway Code when they have failed to do so in the past? Perhaps I might suggest that these so called *new rules* are step one in bringing cyclists into line with other road users. I can see the headline now **Cyclists to be required to PAY Road Tax and Compulsory Insurance and be easily identifiable. Could create a whole new industry nicking and fining them. Would solve the Chancellors money problems - could then extend it to dogs.

By the way the whole left hand thing is a big joke for older drivers we were taught such things 50/60/70 years ago.

Remember Mirror - Signal - Manoeuvre - and Always look over your shoulder when moving off or opening the door.

Wow!

Someone, somewhere, reading this thread has just shouted 'House!' as you have completed all the usual rants about cycling for buzzword bingo. 

It would be difficult to write something more inaccurate and biased - congratulations. Although thinking about it you missed 'I'm a cyclist too'. 

Nofinway

Grumpy_chap said:

Grey_Critic said:

Personally I try to give cyclists room but my real concern is that there is no rule that says **Cyclists should be clearly visible** Many are with Hi-Viz vests and proper lights both day and night but many are not. 

I always try to give cyclists room but it is made harder by the absence, in practice, of a consensus where the cyclist should best position themselves.  When in a city area with high levels of congestion, some cyclist are between car and pavement, so I manoeuvre towards the centre of the road slightly to give space.  Then the next cyclist is on the middle of the road passing the cars, but I can't simply move back in to the pavement.

Under normal circumstances, with the new Highway Code, the recommendation is that the cyclist takes primary. Bikeability (the old Cycling Proficiency) and Roadcraft have always advised thus so you will find many cyclist already doing this. 

For your example in more urban, congested areas I would simply suggest going with the flow and not making any sudden moves to either side. Let the cyclists sort out for themselves.