Hierarchy of Road Users - 29th January 2022

Norman_Castle

zagfles said:

Norman_Castle said:

Absolutely no difference. I haven't changed my behaviour when driving or walking and it appears no one else has. I haven't inconvenienced any pedestrians or struggled when crossing roads.  Ill conceived nonsense.

Well if motorists and pedestrians can't understand fairly simple give way rules, I guess we're stuck with the sort of junctions where traffic in all directions has to be stopped by a red light because one pedestrian wants to cross, even if no traffic is crossing the pedestrian's path.

No we're not. I regularly cross roads at junctions without assistance from motorists, don't you? There's no suggestion the rules are not being understood. No need for lights if a crossing is needed, a zebra crossing would work.

This new rule may help pedestrians at a tiny proportion of junction but for the vast majority of junctions it is completely unnecessary.

zagfles

Norman_Castle said:

zagfles said:

Norman_Castle said:

Absolutely no difference. I haven't changed my behaviour when driving or walking and it appears no one else has. I haven't inconvenienced any pedestrians or struggled when crossing roads.  Ill conceived nonsense.

Well if motorists and pedestrians can't understand fairly simple give way rules, I guess we're stuck with the sort of junctions where traffic in all directions has to be stopped by a red light because one pedestrian wants to cross, even if no traffic is crossing the pedestrian's path.

No we're not. I regularly cross roads at junctions without assistance from motorists, don't you? There's no suggestion the rules are not being understood. No need for lights if a crossing is needed, a zebra crossing would work.

This new rule may help pedestrians at a tiny proportion of junction but for the vast majority of junctions it is completely unnecessary.

It would help motorists too. How many times have you been stuck at a red light, the only reason for that red light being for pedestrians to cross, even when there are no pedestrians actually crossing your path? Or where there were, but have long since walked past, and you're stuck waiting for the light to change?

Zebras used to be common but were mostly replaced by pelicans because it was thought motorists are too stupid to understand give way rules. And then by the new style ones where rather than a "give way" flashing amber after giving most pedestrians time to cross but maybe not slower pedestrians, they sit at red for longer delaying traffic even more. The less "give way" you have, the more unnecessary waiting at red lights you get.

Pedestrian crossings at crossroads often work by stopping traffic in all directions where one pedestrian wants to cross, even if most of the traffic isn't actually crossing the pedestrian's path. There's one like that on my way to work, it causes long traffic delays in the rush hour, because there's effectively 3 phases, green for N/S traffic and red for E/W, green for E/W traffic and red for N/S, then red for all traffic and green man for all pedestrians. Most traffic doesn't turn, and there are 2 lanes anyway, so it would be far more efficient to let pedestrians have the green man while traffic turning into their path also has the green light, if turning traffic understands they have to give way. Pedestrian numbers are fairly low, but it only takes one pedestrian per phase to press the crossing button to mean there's always 3 phases. Delays caused to turning traffic by one pedestrian would be minimal, maybe 5 seconds, whereas the delay to all traffic, even traffic not turning into the pedestrian's path, caused by the extra phase stopping all traffic, is maybe a minute or so. With long queues at rush hour, it can take 10 minutes to clear the junction.

mark1959

I wouldn't be able to stand all that palaver, and cycle instead. [or walk]

Username03725

zagfles said:

Have you been to Milton Keynes? Pedestrians and cyclists are completely separated from cars, they have separate routes for bikes and pedestrians (redways). Outside the very centre most roads are 60mph as there are no pedestrians or bikes.

I found that a lot better than NL, driving in NL was a nightmare in some places.

MK's redway system has long since been seen as the epitome of how not to do it. It’s awful, unless you’re happy to have to stop every time the redway crosses a side road off a main road, or if you like your cycle route to take long meandering curves to move the crossing point away from the junction (reasonably so, but it’s a pain); or if you enjoy more long meandering curves that drop under main roads with long climbs out the other side from the underpass, where the local youths gathered there aren’t necessarily about to wish you an enjoyable journey.

And they’re mixed use so you find yourself trying to get to work in a reasonable time but hindered by bunches of kids on the way to school blocking the whole path, with no inclination to move out of the way when you ring your bell. Or dog walkers with those extending leads who take an 'excuse me pls' as a personal affront. And being mixed use the speed limit (English law precedent) is 30kph (18mph). No thanks.

When I lived there I preferred the roads. They may be 60 and 70 limits - although a lot of 40 limits were being introduced on the core grid roads - but at least you could get to & from work at a reasonable pace. 

In short, the MK redway system was awful if you just wanted to get from A to B at a reasonable pace. For families bimbling about, probably great.

zagfles

Username03725 said:

zagfles said:

Have you been to Milton Keynes? Pedestrians and cyclists are completely separated from cars, they have separate routes for bikes and pedestrians (redways). Outside the very centre most roads are 60mph as there are no pedestrians or bikes.

I found that a lot better than NL, driving in NL was a nightmare in some places.

MK's redway system has long since been seen as the epitome of how not to do it. It’s awful, unless you’re happy to have to stop every time the redway crosses a side road off a main road, or if you like your cycle route to take long meandering curves to move the crossing point away from the junction (reasonably so, but it’s a pain); or if you enjoy more long meandering curves that drop under main roads with long climbs out the other side from the underpass, where the local youths gathered there aren’t necessarily about to wish you an enjoyable journey.

And they’re mixed use so you find yourself trying to get to work in a reasonable time but hindered by bunches of kids on the way to school blocking the whole path, with no inclination to move out of the way when you ring your bell. Or dog walkers with those extending leads who take an 'excuse me pls' as a personal affront. And being mixed use the speed limit (English law precedent) is 30kph (18mph). No thanks.

When I lived there I preferred the roads. They may be 60 and 70 limits - although a lot of 40 limits were being introduced on the core grid roads - but at least you could get to & from work at a reasonable pace. 

In short, the MK redway system was awful if you just wanted to get from A to B at a reasonable pace. For families bimbling about, probably great.

I've never used them as a cyclist or pedestrian, I was writing from the POV of a motorist. I suppose all road users don't like being hindered by slower traffic, whether it's cars by cyclists or cyclists by pedestrians. Perhaps there should be separate routes for each!

NBLondon

zagfles said:

Pedestrian crossings at crossroads often work by stopping traffic in all directions where one pedestrian wants to cross, even if most of the traffic isn't actually crossing the pedestrian's path. There's one like that on my way to work, it causes long traffic delays in the rush hour, because there's effectively 3 phases, green for N/S traffic and red for E/W, green for E/W traffic and red for N/S, then red for all traffic and green man for all pedestrians. 

The one nearest me is like that.  It kind of makes sense since there is a Post Office on one corner, pub on another and shops on the other two.  So at various times of day - there will be pedestrians on 3 out of 4 crossings.  But the all-red phase is only just long enough to cross one road unless you are young/fit enough to jog.  It might be a good test case for a diagonal Tokyo style crossing since Post Office to shops (catercorner) is a common route.

The other problem is that E/W is the major route but has a significant number of vehicles turning right; during the day the oncoming traffic is such that maybe 1 or 2 vehicles can turn right each cycle but a 3rd and 4th are already in the junction and have to dash through - where pedestrians are nipping across...    I'm sure it could be improved with a filter or two....

jimbo6977

Username03725 said:

zagfles said:

Have you been to Milton Keynes? Pedestrians and cyclists are completely separated from cars, they have separate routes for bikes and pedestrians (redways). Outside the very centre most roads are 60mph as there are no pedestrians or bikes.

I found that a lot better than NL, driving in NL was a nightmare in some places.

MK's redway system has long since been seen as the epitome of how not to do it. It’s awful, unless you’re happy to have to stop every time the redway crosses a side road off a main road, or if you like your cycle route to take long meandering curves to move the crossing point away from the junction (reasonably so, but it’s a pain); or if you enjoy more long meandering curves that drop under main roads with long climbs out the other side from the underpass, where the local youths gathered there aren’t necessarily about to wish you an enjoyable journey.

And they’re mixed use so you find yourself trying to get to work in a reasonable time but hindered by bunches of kids on the way to school blocking the whole path, with no inclination to move out of the way when you ring your bell. Or dog walkers with those extending leads who take an 'excuse me pls' as a personal affront. And being mixed use the speed limit (English law precedent) is 30kph (18mph). No thanks.

When I lived there I preferred the roads. They may be 60 and 70 limits - although a lot of 40 limits were being introduced on the core grid roads - but at least you could get to & from work at a reasonable pace. 

In short, the MK redway system was awful if you just wanted to get from A to B at a reasonable pace. For families bimbling about, probably great.

Rather ironic in the circumstances.