Have I been "blacklisted" from a job? Seeking reference for a new one (police)

TELLIT01

qwertyK said:

So I'm 18, started what was supposedly a "part time" job (advertised as 12hrs) , and quickly didn't like it.
My manager was extremely unprofessional, blatantly rude, and hostile towards me.
She had no consideration for the fact I was also working a second job in the evenings and gave me as little as half an hour between the two (meaning I was effectively doing a 9 hour day with a 15 minute break - illegal).

You having a second job is not the concern of the first employer.  You are not working 9 hours per day for them without a break so there is nothing illegal going on.  You come across as having a greater sense of entitlement than sense of responsibility.  Walking out on a job without giving notice is not acceptable, and can certainly be noted on any reference they supply.

Jude57

Former police officer here. I just want to add my two penn'orth. @qwertyK I'm going to be honest with you here but please understand that while you may not like what I have to say, it's from experience and in hopes of setting realistic expectations for you. 

Your GP can only give a very general assessment of your health (General Practitioner, clue is in the name) but Occupational Health (again, clue is in the name) are, effectively, specialists in what impact physical or mental disabilities may have on a person's ability to carry out all aspects of a job. It may well be that with reasonable adjustments, such as a customised chair, a rising desk etc, you would be able to carry out the 'desk' duties of a police officer. However, would you be able to sit in a patrol car or van for up to eight hours at a time on duty? There are no special car seats which could be fitted to every vehicle in the force's fleet to accommodate your disability. On duty, you take whichever vehicle you are allocated and even if there was a specific seat fitted for you, the force can't afford to have that vehicle sitting idle when you aren't using it. So PC21 takes it out on his shift but his shift gets extended to the point he's still on duty when you come on shift so you have to use whatever vehicle is available. If you are tasked to stand guard at a location for an entire shift, could you physically do that? Can you see the potential issues? Your colleagues will support you but not to the extent of doing parts of your job for you.

You mention an interest in becoming a Certified Firearms Officer. I'm afraid that is unlikely to be open to you for many years, if ever. You would be subject to a very exhaustive, intrusive background check, as well as extensive psychometric testing. CFO's must be able to respond to kinetic situations at a moment's notice but most of the time they carry out normal police duties. The standard kit they wear is heavy and restrictive and you'd need to be able to meet the strict fitness requirements. Adjustments for disability would be minimal, if any. Your colleagues need to be able to rely on you 100%, physically and mentally. For example, a former colleague, who was formerly an Army weapons instructor and had seen active service, was refused CFO clearance because he'd had episodes of sciatica. CFO's need to be physically and psychologically robust. You may be called upon to take a life. And in doing so, you will be liable to be charged with a crime and be vilified by the public and special interest groups. It is not like TV or films. Read Tony Long's book Lethal Force for an insight.

The bottom line for any police officer is to be able to carry out the full range of their duties under very trying circumstances. People will abuse you simply because of the uniform and you cannot walk away from that if there is any risk to the safety of the public (even those abusing you) or your colleagues. Your own safety comes last and your feelings about being subjected to abuse really don't come into it, I'm afraid. You'll be dealing with people with mental health issues for which they should be taking medication or be Sectioned but aren't and you'll deal with them week in, week out, time and again, rinse and repeat. Some of these people will be violent. Many will be terrified of you and lash out. It's hard to reason with someone who believes you are about to kill them. You will be dealing with vulnerable people on the worst day of their lives. You don't forget the first death notification you do, nor any involving a child.

It's not a job everyone can do and although in an ideal world, disabilities should be supported I have to honestly say, when I was serving, I wanted to know that my colleagues were fit enough to protect me if needed, as I was to protect them. I left the job because my mental health took a battering and I'd have to say I was no longer up to it mentally. 

I hope some of this is helpful, OP. I wish you well and good luck.

qwertyK

Jude57 said:

Former police officer here. I just want to add my two penn'orth. @qwertyK I'm going to be honest with you here but please understand that while you may not like what I have to say, it's from experience and in hopes of setting realistic expectations for you. 

Your GP can only give a very general assessment of your health (General Practitioner, clue is in the name) but Occupational Health (again, clue is in the name) are, effectively, specialists in what impact physical or mental disabilities may have on a person's ability to carry out all aspects of a job. It may well be that with reasonable adjustments, such as a customised chair, a rising desk etc, you would be able to carry out the 'desk' duties of a police officer. However, would you be able to sit in a patrol car or van for up to eight hours at a time on duty? There are no special car seats which could be fitted to every vehicle in the force's fleet to accommodate your disability. On duty, you take whichever vehicle you are allocated and even if there was a specific seat fitted for you, the force can't afford to have that vehicle sitting idle when you aren't using it. So PC21 takes it out on his shift but his shift gets extended to the point he's still on duty when you come on shift so you have to use whatever vehicle is available. If you are tasked to stand guard at a location for an entire shift, could you physically do that? Can you see the potential issues? Your colleagues will support you but not to the extent of doing parts of your job for you.

You mention an interest in becoming a Certified Firearms Officer. I'm afraid that is unlikely to be open to you for many years, if ever. You would be subject to a very exhaustive, intrusive background check, as well as extensive psychometric testing. CFO's must be able to respond to kinetic situations at a moment's notice but most of the time they carry out normal police duties. The standard kit they wear is heavy and restrictive and you'd need to be able to meet the strict fitness requirements. Adjustments for disability would be minimal, if any. Your colleagues need to be able to rely on you 100%, physically and mentally. For example, a former colleague, who was formerly an Army weapons instructor and had seen active service, was refused CFO clearance because he'd had episodes of sciatica. CFO's need to be physically and psychologically robust. You may be called upon to take a life. And in doing so, you will be liable to be charged with a crime and be vilified by the public and special interest groups. It is not like TV or films. Read Tony Long's book Lethal Force for an insight.

The bottom line for any police officer is to be able to carry out the full range of their duties under very trying circumstances. People will abuse you simply because of the uniform and you cannot walk away from that if there is any risk to the safety of the public (even those abusing you) or your colleagues. Your own safety comes last and your feelings about being subjected to abuse really don't come into it, I'm afraid. You'll be dealing with people with mental health issues for which they should be taking medication or be Sectioned but aren't and you'll deal with them week in, week out, time and again, rinse and repeat. Some of these people will be violent. Many will be terrified of you and lash out. It's hard to reason with someone who believes you are about to kill them. You will be dealing with vulnerable people on the worst day of their lives. You don't forget the first death notification you do, nor any involving a child.

It's not a job everyone can do and although in an ideal world, disabilities should be supported I have to honestly say, when I was serving, I wanted to know that my colleagues were fit enough to protect me if needed, as I was to protect them. I left the job because my mental health took a battering and I'd have to say I was no longer up to it mentally. 

I hope some of this is helpful, OP. I wish you well and good luck.

I’ve read the book. Honestly right now I’m just concentrating on getting in and I’ve also applied for the investigate first scheme so I’ll be a detective

as with sitting in a car…my main actual job right now is a delivery driver 3-4 hours a night and I have no pain 

qwertyK

NCC1701-A said:

qwertyK said:

NCC1701-A said:

qwertyK said:

Jillanddy said:

On a slightly different tack, I must say that I'm impressed that the police are recruiting 18 year old disabled employees. Round here someone off that age and medical background would never get a look in.  Some forces are obviously much more forward looking than others.  

I’m not fully disabled . I have scoliosis which wouldn’t stop me from being a police officer. Desk work would actually be worse for me especially if it involved sitting down for a long time .

also 18 is the minimum age to join so there’s no reason as to why they wouldn’t take you. You do a degree apprenticeship scheme now. And having a disability (the one that  affects me more, autism), can actually mean you offer something different to the role 

Have you done any research into what being a police officer means day to day?  Were you a police cadet (if they still do them), Spent any time as a special Constable? Read any blogs?  

Sitting at a desk filling out online forms is a big part of the job.  Sitting on benches in court.  Climbing over walls. As is dealing with very unpleasant people who do not want to talk to you and do not care about your back or whether they need to talk nicely to you.

If you couldn't cope with a week in retail you are going to be in for a very big surprise.  

Also lying, either overtly or by omission on the application form does not bode well.

NCC1701-A said:

qwertyK said:

Jillanddy said:

On a slightly different tack, I must say that I'm impressed that the police are recruiting 18 year old disabled employees. Round here someone off that age and medical background would never get a look in.  Some forces are obviously much more forward looking than others.  

I’m not fully disabled . I have scoliosis which wouldn’t stop me from being a police officer. Desk work would actually be worse for me especially if it involved sitting down for a long time .

also 18 is the minimum age to join so there’s no reason as to why they wouldn’t take you. You do a degree apprenticeship scheme now. And having a disability (the one that  affects me more, autism), can actually mean you offer something different to the role 

Have you done any research into what being a police officer means day to day?  Were you a police cadet (if they still do them), Spent any time as a special Constable? Read any blogs?  

Sitting at a desk filling out online forms is a big part of the job.  Sitting on benches in court.  Climbing over walls. As is dealing with very unpleasant people who do not want to talk to you and do not care about your back or whether they need to talk nicely to you.

If you couldn't cope with a week in retail you are going to be in for a very big surprise.  

Also lying, either overtly or by omission on the application form does not bode well.

Yes I have. Literally years. I was in the army cadets there wasn't police cadets where I was. 
With all due respct this is nothing to do with "coping". I did 2 months in retail before. I hate it. Its boring, serves little to no purpose (as an autistic person this is a big problem) and has little to no reward. I'm applying for the police because I think I'll enjoy it, or at the very least, parts of it. I enjoyed virtually nothing about retail other than looking at my watch and realising it's just five minutes til I can go home. 

I haven't lied. When I filled in the reference form for pre-employment checks, they wanted jobs I had done or was doing at the time. So I didn't put M&S down because I hadn't started it yet. I literally emailed them today and gave them the M&S HR number as suggested here for a "reference".

Also again re back - day to day (which for me entails driving usually for work/delivery driving which I do 3 hours a day 3 days a week) , going to the gym, running etc, my back gives me little to no pain, usually only first thing when I wake up in the morning on some days and like I said, sitting down for prolonged periods of time in a chair that doesn't have adequate support. Have you seen a supermarket chair? It's uncofmortable even for people without back problems, and those who dont have them usually leave with one.

It's not fair to judge me based on a disability that is totally out of my control. Or judge my personality based on me quitting a job after a week. It was only going to last another week or so anyway as it was part time - it also clashed with my existing evening job so was untenable. My doctor thinks I'm fit for service, jsut have to see what OH think. 

I think judging someone's character is a very difficult task to do behind a computer screen. You were 18 once. We've all quit jobs we don't like. I stood up to a boss who was a bully, and didn't stay somewhere where I'd only be unhappy. In my view, that is commendable. I don't have a problem with authority, in fact I actualyl like structure and ranks, but the lack of professionalism my boss showed towards me was very shocking...

The army cadets will not have prepared you for dealing with the general public, police cadets or retail would.

If you think retail serves no purpose, I admire your ability to grow your own food or make your own clothes and computers etc.  Or do you not understand how society fits together?

As I read it you have not mentioned your bad back to the police - that is a rather key omission.  

All the supermarket till chairs I've seen are quite functional and adjustable.

Adult life is not the same as school life, lots and lots of things are unfair, just read a few threads on here.  Learning to cope with such things whilst striving for a more just society is a worthy character trait.

I've moved careers, I've never flounced out of a job without giving the legal notice.

I don’t consider my back which is only really bad at times tk be consider w disability but I declared it when they asked for health etc and the gp confirmed it . When I was diagnosed (15) the doctor said the only jobs I’d really be unsuitable for would be army or firefighting. Due to carrying heavy equipment . 

Maybe you haven’t left without giving notice in …But why would I give notice to a job which was part time and the notice would have meant completing it anyway? Why would I work a job for a second longer than I had to if they couldn’t actually guarantee me getting paid for it ? 

BrassicWoman

qwertyK said:

But why would I give notice to a job which was part time and the notice would have meant completing it anyway? 

Simply, because you signed a contract saying you would. Or you may not have, seeing as you cannot find the contract. But it seems likely.
Keeping your word matters to some more than others.

qwertyK

Jude57 said:

Former police officer here. I just want to add my two penn'orth. @qwertyK I'm going to be honest with you here but please understand that while you may not like what I have to say, it's from experience and in hopes of setting realistic expectations for you. 

Your GP can only give a very general assessment of your health (General Practitioner, clue is in the name) but Occupational Health (again, clue is in the name) are, effectively, specialists in what impact physical or mental disabilities may have on a person's ability to carry out all aspects of a job. It may well be that with reasonable adjustments, such as a customised chair, a rising desk etc, you would be able to carry out the 'desk' duties of a police officer. However, would you be able to sit in a patrol car or van for up to eight hours at a time on duty? There are no special car seats which could be fitted to every vehicle in the force's fleet to accommodate your disability. On duty, you take whichever vehicle you are allocated and even if there was a specific seat fitted for you, the force can't afford to have that vehicle sitting idle when you aren't using it. So PC21 takes it out on his shift but his shift gets extended to the point he's still on duty when you come on shift so you have to use whatever vehicle is available. If you are tasked to stand guard at a location for an entire shift, could you physically do that? Can you see the potential issues? Your colleagues will support you but not to the extent of doing parts of your job for you.

You mention an interest in becoming a Certified Firearms Officer. I'm afraid that is unlikely to be open to you for many years, if ever. You would be subject to a very exhaustive, intrusive background check, as well as extensive psychometric testing. CFO's must be able to respond to kinetic situations at a moment's notice but most of the time they carry out normal police duties. The standard kit they wear is heavy and restrictive and you'd need to be able to meet the strict fitness requirements. Adjustments for disability would be minimal, if any. Your colleagues need to be able to rely on you 100%, physically and mentally. For example, a former colleague, who was formerly an Army weapons instructor and had seen active service, was refused CFO clearance because he'd had episodes of sciatica. CFO's need to be physically and psychologically robust. You may be called upon to take a life. And in doing so, you will be liable to be charged with a crime and be vilified by the public and special interest groups. It is not like TV or films. Read Tony Long's book Lethal Force for an insight.

The bottom line for any police officer is to be able to carry out the full range of their duties under very trying circumstances. People will abuse you simply because of the uniform and you cannot walk away from that if there is any risk to the safety of the public (even those abusing you) or your colleagues. Your own safety comes last and your feelings about being subjected to abuse really don't come into it, I'm afraid. You'll be dealing with people with mental health issues for which they should be taking medication or be Sectioned but aren't and you'll deal with them week in, week out, time and again, rinse and repeat. Some of these people will be violent. Many will be terrified of you and lash out. It's hard to reason with someone who believes you are about to kill them. You will be dealing with vulnerable people on the worst day of their lives. You don't forget the first death notification you do, nor any involving a child.

It's not a job everyone can do and although in an ideal world, disabilities should be supported I have to honestly say, when I was serving, I wanted to know that my colleagues were fit enough to protect me if needed, as I was to protect them. I left the job because my mental health took a battering and I'd have to say I was no longer up to it mentally. 

I hope some of this is helpful, OP. I wish you well and good luck.

Thanks it was helpful also I would add - the issue isn’t I can’t take abuse I’d be going into  the wrong job if I couldn’t. The issue is I can’t - and quite rightly - won’t take abuse or unprofessionalism from supervisors. That’s not to say I wouldn’t be receptive to criticism that is very different . Personally, I have a very thick skin for abuse. It’s often a running “joke” that police officers were bullied at school…i certainly was . Without going too much into it the things I’ve had to deal with the emotions and everything I’ve had to deal with up to the age of 18 are more than most people would have to deal with in their entire lives. Whether or not tie includes police officers I don’t know I can’t imagine what it must be like to inform someone w close relative etc has died but I can imagine it doesn’t get any easier 

I only quit things in life that I don’t enjoy anyway and aren’t committing myself to. I pursue the things I think I’ll be good at and want to be good at. If I don’t get into the police this time there will be another. I think I’m most likely to fail in terms of the fact I’m on medication (antidepressants). Do you know of any colleagues who went into the service on medication? I know many inevitably end up needing it . If it makes any difference my depression wasn’t caused by a traumatic event etc 

qwertyK

BrassicWoman said:

qwertyK said:

But why would I give notice to a job which was part time and the notice would have meant completing it anyway? 

Simply, because you signed a contract saying you would. Or you may not have, seeing as you cannot find the contract. But it seems likely.
Keeping your word matters to some more than others.

No I don’t recall signing any contract and neither does my colleague who joined at the same time as me. 

I don’t recall if there actually even was a notice period given it was a part time job. 

Had I known this I might have done things differently but my manager didn’t say I had a notice period to work etc. 

lcc86

I don't mean to cause offence but if you don't remember signing a contract and then don't think you should have to work a notice period (every job has a notice period) then are you really suited to police work where attention to detail and the law is key?

I can only speak anecdotally but a relative of mine just joined the police having previously been sectioned as a teen and it hasn't held her back so hopefully you being on antidepressants won't be an issue. Your back may be another matter, although you say it doesn't affect you, occupational health won't just be looking at how it affects you now but how it could affect you in future given it could potentially affect your ability to do your job if it worsens or if you were to get injured etc. But you can only wait and see what they say.

General_Grant

qwertyK said:

BrassicWoman said:

qwertyK said:

But why would I give notice to a job which was part time and the notice would have meant completing it anyway? 

Simply, because you signed a contract saying you would. Or you may not have, seeing as you cannot find the contract. But it seems likely.
Keeping your word matters to some more than others.

No I don’t recall signing any contract and neither does my colleague who joined at the same time as me. 

I don’t recall if there actually even was a notice period given it was a part time job. 

Had I known this I might have done things differently but my manager didn’t say I had a notice period to work etc. 

It is not necessary for you to have signed an employment contract, although some employers request a signature that you have received the information they have to provide on or before your first day of employment.  That would have included information about notice periods.  
If you were an employee, I would have expected M&S procedures to have ensured you received that written information.

Jude57

@qwertyK I'm glad you've taken my first post in the spirit it was intended.

I see @lcc86 has confirmed that their relative was able to join even after what must have been a serious mental health issue. If antidepressants stabilise your mood, I can't see why that would be a bar to joining but different forces have different requirements so it's not a sure thing either way. I can say that any mental health issue is likely to be a bar to becoming a CFO and some other sensitive roles.

As to the physical requirements of being a detective, these can be just as demanding as for uniformed officers. Certainly, sitting on observations for many hours is a regular feature, and you're going to be limited in terms of how often you can change position. When I say the whole shift, I mean eight hours sitting in one position. If I was your colleague, I'd need to be sure you're able to physically do that, followed by an intense foot chase then subdue a desperate suspect without leaving me alone in the firing line as it were.

From the force perspective, they will look at what you are capable of doing, physically, at the moment. They'll want to be as sure as they can be that you won't be a danger to yourself or others or a law suit waiting to happen if you further damage your spine on duty. Every long serving officer I've known has a knackered back, knees or both! It's about your wellbeing as much as anything else.

That saying about police officers being bullied at school is actually an insult because it goes on to say that it's the reason they joined, to be bullies themselves. I wouldn't recommend using it if you get an interview. On the other hand, being able to deal calmly with abuse without it affecting your professional conduct despite provocation is a key skill. I also agree that attention to detail and retention of key facts are vital. When giving evidence under oath in court you can refer to your notebook but if you don't remember something important, the defendant's solicitor or barrister will make you look incompetent or evasive, neither of which you want.