Credit Card dispute leading to court procedures

Loobc

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

born_again said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

born_again said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

Realistically at the point that they contacted you, you should have tried to sort it out as amicably as possible. Instead, you ignored their request and let the chargeback go through (which again looks a lot like the actions of someone trying to rip them off.)  You can try to defend it by saying that you thought this was the best course of action but I'm struggling to see how a rational person would think these actions reasonable.

The OP could not have stopped the chargeback, that is not possible. The only way would have been for the company to contest it. Which within the 45 day period they have a right to do.

TBH. Given the lack of response from the company the OP did what they are entitled to. The problem here is solely with the company for their failure to respond to the OP in the 1st place & then not contesting the chargeback. Simply ringing the OP in the manner they did is not good customer service.

Yes the company have a right to the goods back. But that is their issue to sort with the OP in as amicably way as possible. way. Not simply claim fraud & we are taking you to court.

It doesn't change the fact that the OP let it go through. The OP didn't even try to stop it.  They had no intention of stopping it. They did not tell the retailer "sorry, I can't stop it" they said "I would rather let the companies (my credit card and their payment provider) deal with the matter."  If I was a company and had little knowledge of the chargeback process, I'd be a bit miffed to receive that, to be honest.

We don't know why the company failed to respond to the OP. As I said, it's not uncommon for certain email providers to not like each other's emails for whatever reason.  Perhaps the company just ignored the OP, but there's every chance the emails were never received.  Perhaps the chargeback (along with details that emails were not being responded to got them to check a few things and fix the problem. Who knows.

Yet you expect the OP to know the chargeback process? Someone who has even less knowledge of the payment process..

Simple terms. YOU CAN'T STOP A CHARGEBACK once it has been started. 

The company will have been informed by their merchant bank about the chargeback. If they did not know the process then they should have been asking the merchant bank.

I never said I expected them to know the chargeback process. Where are you getting this from?

You claimed that the OP couldn't have cancelled it.  I pointed out that was irrelevant as the OP never tried.

It appears neither party understood how the chargeback process works, but it doesn't help that the OP's response was incredibly dismissive, and essentially "deal with my card company because I can't be bothered dealing with you myself."

Again, you clearly haven't read a word I've said. That is not what happened, it was dismissed because the merchant accused me of fraud and said this would impact my credit file and what I would have issues getting credit etc

So I said due to the threats etc I will leave it with my card company and his aggregate to deal with and that I will happily return said item once it had been resolved by them. If someone threatens you like that to impact your livelihood it only makes sense to leave it with the companies to deal with. 

Loobc

eskbanker said:

Loobc said:
I have offered several times since the dispute was resolved in my favour to return the item, I've said this multiple times but the company are refusing to accept a return.  

I think you've misunderstood the card company's role here.

Chargeback is a mechanism via which customers can retrieve their money from merchants, under a specific range of circumstances, but even if the card company agreed to refund the customer, this does not resolve the dispute between customer and merchant at all, it simply reimburses the former at the expense of the latter.

As seen in many cases on this forum, merchants who've lost out via chargeback are still free to pursue the customer for the resultant debt, so the card company simply doesn't have any authority to resolve a dispute as such, even if they choose to pass on the money.

So, disengaging from your dialogue with the merchant and expecting the card company to take care of things for you was never going to resolve the matter, and will have significantly reduced the prospect of an amicable agreement.

Now that the merchant is pursuing you for the money, the fact that the card company sided with you when choosing to return the funds is essentially irrelevant.

Having said that, it's still not clear on what (valid) grounds the card company raised the chargeback against the merchant in the first place - you guessed that it might be an argument that lack of response within 14 days constitutes an actionable breach, but that still doesn't align with any of the reason codes shared by another poster earlier.  Did you see the actual claim?

Maybe I have but why would I know? I tried to return the item, they did nothing so I raised it with my company. I'm not trying to plead ignorance here but why would I know?

I have now requested all the paperwork from them regarding this, they didn't even inform me they had settled in my favour, the merchant did and when I rang them they said 'yes all sorted, we've credited you but the merchant my come back to us'

I feel what I should've said is it is a charge card with American Express, I don't know if that changes the dispute process. 

MEM62

My post did not belittle you and did not refer to you as foolish.  The point I was making was (a) the advice you had received was sound and from a respected poster and (b) no matter what the history a summons has been issued.  That cuts down your choice of actions to two - pay it or make your case in court. There are no other options on the table.    

Loobc

MEM62 said:

My post did not belittle you and did not refer to you as foolish.  The point I was making was (a) the advice you had received was sound and from a respected poster and (b) no matter what the history a summons has been issued.  That cuts down your choice of actions to two - pay it or make your case in court. There are no other options on the table.    

I didn't say you did, another poster did. They are respected by people who are on this forum a lot and have been able to see multiple bits of advice, not someone that has hardly posted, one can't judge just because they might have 5000 posts. 

The fact I've had to repeatedly say that I'm happy to return the item after the dispute (and before) was raised and the only reason the dispute was raised to start with is because they didn't respond to the return request, makes it somewhat hard to work out of people have bothered reading. 

As mentioned, I'll do the mediation and see, if it goes to court I'll go and have my say. My initial actions to get this resolved were completely fair and correct based on what happened, maybe I should've return it when they responded to the dispute and I let threats of CRA issues and not being able to use a merchant again, I guess I took them to heart. 

The point remains a return address has still not been provided, despite me requesting it several times.

LaHostessAvecLaMostess

Loobc said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

born_again said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

born_again said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

Realistically at the point that they contacted you, you should have tried to sort it out as amicably as possible. Instead, you ignored their request and let the chargeback go through (which again looks a lot like the actions of someone trying to rip them off.)  You can try to defend it by saying that you thought this was the best course of action but I'm struggling to see how a rational person would think these actions reasonable.

The OP could not have stopped the chargeback, that is not possible. The only way would have been for the company to contest it. Which within the 45 day period they have a right to do.

TBH. Given the lack of response from the company the OP did what they are entitled to. The problem here is solely with the company for their failure to respond to the OP in the 1st place & then not contesting the chargeback. Simply ringing the OP in the manner they did is not good customer service.

Yes the company have a right to the goods back. But that is their issue to sort with the OP in as amicably way as possible. way. Not simply claim fraud & we are taking you to court.

It doesn't change the fact that the OP let it go through. The OP didn't even try to stop it.  They had no intention of stopping it. They did not tell the retailer "sorry, I can't stop it" they said "I would rather let the companies (my credit card and their payment provider) deal with the matter."  If I was a company and had little knowledge of the chargeback process, I'd be a bit miffed to receive that, to be honest.

We don't know why the company failed to respond to the OP. As I said, it's not uncommon for certain email providers to not like each other's emails for whatever reason.  Perhaps the company just ignored the OP, but there's every chance the emails were never received.  Perhaps the chargeback (along with details that emails were not being responded to got them to check a few things and fix the problem. Who knows.

Yet you expect the OP to know the chargeback process? Someone who has even less knowledge of the payment process..

Simple terms. YOU CAN'T STOP A CHARGEBACK once it has been started. 

The company will have been informed by their merchant bank about the chargeback. If they did not know the process then they should have been asking the merchant bank.

I never said I expected them to know the chargeback process. Where are you getting this from?

You claimed that the OP couldn't have cancelled it.  I pointed out that was irrelevant as the OP never tried.

It appears neither party understood how the chargeback process works, but it doesn't help that the OP's response was incredibly dismissive, and essentially "deal with my card company because I can't be bothered dealing with you myself."

Again, you clearly haven't read a word I've said. That is not what happened, it was dismissed because the merchant accused me of fraud and said this would impact my credit file and what I would have issues getting credit etc

So I said due to the threats etc I will leave it with my card company and his aggregate to deal with and that I will happily return said item once it had been resolved by them. If someone threatens you like that to impact your livelihood it only makes sense to leave it with the companies to deal with. 

I did read what you've said but you seem to think because I don't agree with you that I haven't.

The seller flew off the handle a bit, yes, but your response was rather dismissive.  You don't know the backstory as to why the retailer flew off the handle. If, for example, your emails genuinely got lost in the ether (wonky spam filter etc) then I'm not particularly surprised that a retailer (certainly a small one who tend to be a lot more personal in these matters than faceless giants) got a bit cross that you, as far as they were concerned, went straight to a chargeback rather than trying to sort it out amicably.

Meanwhile, you sent emails and think they're trying it on by ignoring you, so get rather put out when they accuse you of fraud.

It doesn't change the fact, however, that you did not try to return the item at that point and then fobbed them off.

Loobc

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said

I did read what you've said but you seem to think because I don't agree with you that I haven't.

The seller flew off the handle a bit, yes, but your response was rather dismissive.  You don't know the backstory as to why the retailer flew off the handle. If, for example, your emails genuinely got lost in the ether (wonky spam filter etc) then I'm not particularly surprised that a retailer (certainly a small one who tend to be a lot more personal in these matters than faceless giants) got a bit cross that you, as far as they were concerned, went straight to a chargeback rather than trying to sort it out amicably.

Meanwhile, you sent emails and think they're trying it on by ignoring you, so get rather put out when they accuse you of fraud.

It doesn't change the fact, however, that you did not try to return the item at that point and then fobbed them off.

With respect, if a companies policy is to email them to create the return and an issue arises such as the email didn't arrive, it went to spam etc it's somewhat hard to not get annoyed by this?

Have a phone number or another contact method that enables me to start the return, it annoys me that the blame is pushed onto me, my only 'incorrect' decision was to opt to let my card company continue to deal with it and this was based on threats made to me about a subject im not 100% clear on.

I didn't think they were 'trying it on' I have no idea where you've got that from? Again makes me think you've not fully understood this so I'll lay it out again

I bought something > I wanted to return it so emailed within my 14 day return window > Had no reply for weeks (emailed more than once) > started a dispute > company emailed calling me a fraudster and threatening me > I responding saying due to their acustations I'm going to let the companies resolve this but I'm happy to return the goods after it has been dealt with or at the request of the companies > Dispute settled in my favour > they emailed me requesting money > I replied saying I'm not paying as I attempted to start the return within 14 days but I'm happy to return the items > Company refuses to provide address and refuses return > I reply it seems like we are stuck then, please let me know what you want me to do with the goods within 14 days > I get an email from HMRC for a money claim. 

Fobbed them off is also complete nonsense, telling them I'll let the company deal with the matter because of the threats they made, the actions they took, whilst still saying I'm happy to return the item once it has been dealt with to cover myself from the comments they made isn't 'fobbing off' but ok.

born_again

This is supposed to be a consumer help site. Not a company support site...

eskbanker

Loobc said:
it annoys me that the blame is pushed onto me, my only 'incorrect' decision was to opt to let my card company continue to deal with it and this was based on threats made to me about a subject im not 100% clear on.

I can't speak for anyone else but don't think anyone is saying that you're entirely to blame, just that the responsibility for the current situation is effectively shared.  As you (nearly) concede, refusing to return when given the opportunity to do so (albeit without an address) wasn't the best choice, but it also doesn't really seem that involving Amex at all was appropriate, even if you believed it was, although it's debatable whether they should have taken it on. The fact that they've provisionally reimbursed you ( "we've credited you but the merchant my come back to us") doesn't signify that they won't take the money back eventually though if they side with the merchant, or has that period expired?

The merchant is clearly far from blameless here but ultimately you've ended up with both the money and the goods, so obviously they're not going to let that lie.  Maybe the mediation process will recognise the mitigating circumstances of why you didn't cancel within 14 days, but your initial refusal to return after starting the chargeback process will count against you, so it's not a black and white case, but shades of grey....

Loobc

eskbanker said:

Loobc said:
it annoys me that the blame is pushed onto me, my only 'incorrect' decision was to opt to let my card company continue to deal with it and this was based on threats made to me about a subject im not 100% clear on.

I can't speak for anyone else but don't think anyone is saying that you're entirely to blame, just that the responsibility for the current situation is effectively shared.  As you (nearly) concede, refusing to return when given the opportunity to do so (albeit without an address) wasn't the best choice, but it also doesn't really seem that involving Amex at all was appropriate, even if you believed it was, although it's debatable whether they should have taken it on. The fact that they've provisionally reimbursed you ( "we've credited you but the merchant my come back to us") doesn't signify that they won't take the money back eventually though if they side with the merchant, or has that period expired?

The merchant is clearly far from blameless here but ultimately you've ended up with both the money and the goods, so obviously they're not going to let that lie.  Maybe the mediation process will recognise the mitigating circumstances of why you didn't cancel within 14 days, but your initial refusal to return after starting the chargeback process will count against you, so it's not a black and white case, but shades of grey....

Yeah, I fully appreciate that in hindsight I should've just sent it back, now knowing there's nothing they could've done to the CRA and me using Shopify it was a little silly. 

I still feel involving AmEx was fine and my only choice when the company didn't respond to the returns request made within 14days and leaving it 2 weeks after the 14 day return window was closed along with further emails was the correct thing to do.

Amex said their disputes do not expire and the merchant can go back at any time, so that's why I said to the merchant if they disagree with it to go back to them (once the refused the returns again)

Loobc

Went to mediation, the merchant was told to stop acting like a child (not in those words) and accept the return, all done and dusted and completely pointless all in all.  

Thanks