Credit Card dispute leading to court procedures

in Credit Cards
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  • SandtreeSandtree Forumite
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    Loobc said:
    The court had nothing to do with the threat, it was the first interaction the person had with me, calling me a fraudster and saying why am I claiming the items weren't received (I never said they were not)
    It may have been the first direct interaction you had but they will have had an indirect interaction with you via the bank and hence they arent all smiles and friendly.

    The merchant will have been given a chargeback code which indicates what grounds the chargeback is being made. As has already been pointed your description doesnt really fit into any of the codes and so you may want to have a word with your bank to see what they classified it as, by the sounds of it they put it through as goods not received

    Your_Introduction_to_Chargebacks_and_Retrievals.pdf (barclaycard.co.uk) Pages 8 and 9 give you the codes if you are interested to see

    Go to one of the small business forums and you'll see many advise businesses to ignore chargebacks, they're loaded against the business, and immediately send a letter before action and go to court to get your money back. Its very possible that during your first direct discussion in their mind they were thinking you're just another fake customer trying to get goods and money who they'll need to go to court to resolve
  • born_againborn_again Forumite
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    Loobc said:
    It is a online money request, it first goes to mediation (if we both agree) then to court if we can't get passed that stage.
    Go for mediation.

    Advise them that you tried to return the item, but the retailer would not provide a address. Then add that they have a right under the chargeback regulations to contest. Which they never did.

    Mediator may simply tell them to give you a address to return. If they refuse whoever looks at the claim afterwards may not look kindly at both refusal to provide return address and failing to contest the chargeback.
    Life in the slow lane
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Forumite
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    If you haven't returned the items and also claimed the money. Then that's technically fraud. Expect the company to persue the matter further. 
    It's not 'technically fraud' in any way. Foolish yes, Fraud no.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Forumite
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    Loobc said:
    It is a online money request, it first goes to mediation (if we both agree) then to court if we can't get passed that stage.
    Go for mediation.

    Advise them that you tried to return the item, but the retailer would not provide a address. Then add that they have a right under the chargeback regulations to contest. Which they never did.

    Mediator may simply tell them to give you a address to return. If they refuse whoever looks at the claim afterwards may not look kindly at both refusal to provide return address and failing to contest the chargeback.
    I would have simply sent back the company's registered address by a trackable method e.g. RM Special Delivery.
  • LoobcLoobc Forumite
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    Sandtree said:
    Loobc said:
    The court had nothing to do with the threat, it was the first interaction the person had with me, calling me a fraudster and saying why am I claiming the items weren't received (I never said they were not)
    It may have been the first direct interaction you had but they will have had an indirect interaction with you via the bank and hence they arent all smiles and friendly.

    The merchant will have been given a chargeback code which indicates what grounds the chargeback is being made. As has already been pointed your description doesnt really fit into any of the codes and so you may want to have a word with your bank to see what they classified it as, by the sounds of it they put it through as goods not received

    Your_Introduction_to_Chargebacks_and_Retrievals.pdf (barclaycard.co.uk) Pages 8 and 9 give you the codes if you are interested to see

    Go to one of the small business forums and you'll see many advise businesses to ignore chargebacks, they're loaded against the business, and immediately send a letter before action and go to court to get your money back. Its very possible that during your first direct discussion in their mind they were thinking you're just another fake customer trying to get goods and money who they'll need to go to court to resolve
    But what do they expect when they don't reply to the email to start the return? For someone to just let it go and say, ah don't worry I don't want this item but keep the cash and I'll keep this item I no longer need?

    All of what you say makes sense, apart from the fact I said I'm happy to return the item 4 times and they are refusing to accept the return. I really can't do more than offer and just send the item back and hope for the best. 

    zx81 said:
    Loobc said:
    zx81 said:
    At this stage, you're almost certainly stuck with the items as you didn't return them.

    Whether you can avoid the fees by paying up now I don't know, but it's the best course of action open to you.  Failing that, you can take your chances in court and be ready to pay quickly if they rule in favour of the claimant.
    I can't return something if I was never given the option to pre dispute, it is the reason I raised it. I do find it amusing the people can't seem to see that every effort was made to return said item before it even got to this point, I can't return something if the person is refusing to accept it.

    It's not really that amusing when you understand that we can only go by what you wrote.

    They said you could return the item and for whatever reason, you didn't follow through on that. You could have asked them for the return details then. It's not really falling under the 'every effort was made' category.
    After saying im commiting fraud and telling me it will impact my credit file and future spend. They did no offer anything before the dispute was started, as I said. eskbanker said:
    Loobc said:
    eskbanker said:
    Loobc said:
    I waited 14 days to receive a reply, this never came so I started a dispute with my credit card provider
    What specifically were you claiming for when raising this dispute?  Valid chargeback reasons include goods not received, or not as described, or refund not received (after returning goods), or other breaches of contract, but none of these would seem to apply here, so it's surprising that the card provider apparently upheld your claim....
    I just told them I had attempted to start a return and the merchant didn't respond, they did they rest and gave the merchant the options to respond, they did and it was awarded to me. Upon this I offer again to send the items back. It was refused. 
    Preview
    I guess not accepting a return counts as a breach of contract? 
    It's true that online businesses are obliged under the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 to offer a 14 day cancellation period, so if they refused to honour this then yes, they'd be in breach, but if you sent an email and simply didn't see any response, then in itself I wouldn't have thought that would be seen as refusal - did you make any further attempts to contact them within the 14 days, in order to exercise your right to cancel?

    Loobc said:
    The court had nothing to do with the threat, it was the first interaction the person had with me, calling me a fraudster and saying why am I claiming the items weren't received (I never said they were not)
    How much visibility did you have of the dialogue between your card provider and the merchant?  It seems odd for the merchant to assert that you were claiming non-receipt if you weren't....
    They never responded to the email request, I contacted them twice and got zero response. Yes, I agree and went back to the merchant and advised I never claimed that I haven't received the items but that I simply wanted to return them as they were no longer needed, they didn't respond. I have all the documents between my provider and the merchant, the merchant sent their T&Cs saying I didn't contact them, I sent a copy of my emails and screenshots of the full mailbox showing my emails to them. Deleted User said:
    If you haven't returned the items and also claimed the money. Then that's technically fraud. Expect the company to persue the matter further. 
    It's not 'technically fraud' in any way. Foolish yes, Fraud no.
    It's not foolish to just send an item to an address and hope for the best but thanks for that condescending reply. I followed their returns process, they did not reply when I tried to start the return. What else can I really do other than start a dispute. 

    Loobc said:
    It is a online money request, it first goes to mediation (if we both agree) then to court if we can't get passed that stage.
    Go for mediation.

    Advise them that you tried to return the item, but the retailer would not provide a address. Then add that they have a right under the chargeback regulations to contest. Which they never did.

    Mediator may simply tell them to give you a address to return. If they refuse whoever looks at the claim afterwards may not look kindly at both refusal to provide return address and failing to contest the chargeback.
    I would have simply sent back the company's registered address by a trackable method e.g. RM Special Delivery.
    The address on the item was a personal home address, I couldn't find their business address as they are registered under a different company name, something I only found out when the email came through from the court. 

    Loobc said:
    It is a online money request, it first goes to mediation (if we both agree) then to court if we can't get passed that stage.
    Go for mediation.

    Advise them that you tried to return the item, but the retailer would not provide a address. Then add that they have a right under the chargeback regulations to contest. Which they never did.

    Mediator may simply tell them to give you a address to return. If they refuse whoever looks at the claim afterwards may not look kindly at both refusal to provide return address and failing to contest the chargeback.
    This is what I am doing, I really do not understand why the merchant has agreed to it (they request it first) they have had all the options given to them already. They know I am not paying for something I attempted to return within my legal time frame. They have even lied on the evidence given to the court saying that I haven't offered to return the item despite sending 4 emails saying I'm happy to return the item (pre and post dispute) 
  • eskbankereskbanker Forumite
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    Loobc said:
    They never responded to the email request, I contacted them twice and got zero response. Yes, I agree and went back to the merchant and advised I never claimed that I haven't received the items but that I simply wanted to return them as they were no longer needed, they didn't respond. I have all the documents between my provider and the merchant, the merchant sent their T&Cs saying I didn't contact them, I sent a copy of my emails and screenshots of the full mailbox showing my emails to them.
    Proof that you sent emails isn't proof that they received them though, unless you used delivery/read receipting, or are they not disputing that they received them?  My question about contacting them was more about whether you tried a different channel (if they offered one) if the email(s) didn't trigger a response, as it was obviously in your interests to make sure that you could definitely notify them that you were exercising your right to cancel within the 14 days, so sending emails and hearing nothing back doesn't really put you in as strong a position as you perhaps felt.
  • LoobcLoobc Forumite
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    eskbanker said:
    Loobc said:
    They never responded to the email request, I contacted them twice and got zero response. Yes, I agree and went back to the merchant and advised I never claimed that I haven't received the items but that I simply wanted to return them as they were no longer needed, they didn't respond. I have all the documents between my provider and the merchant, the merchant sent their T&Cs saying I didn't contact them, I sent a copy of my emails and screenshots of the full mailbox showing my emails to them.
    Proof that you sent emails isn't proof that they received them though, unless you used delivery/read receipting, or are they not disputing that they received them?  My question about contacting them was more about whether you tried a different channel (if they offered one) if the email(s) didn't trigger a response, as it was obviously in your interests to make sure that you could definitely notify them that you were exercising your right to cancel within the 14 days, so sending emails and hearing nothing back doesn't really put you in as strong a position as you perhaps felt.
    It's their only form of contact, otherwise I would've just called them. Them not receiving something that has clearly been sent is either

    1. They didn't bother to check (you can't request to be contact via emails as stated in your T&Cs to initiate a return then not respond to that request)
    2. The details they have on their returns page are outdated and therefore my concern about the details be invalid are relevant. 

    If the emailed failed, I would have received notification of this, the only way to start the return to to email them. They have not disputed that they haven't received them, just that I have committed fraud by starting the dispute. 

    To cut a bunch of questions short, I have been buying online for years as many of us have, I am familiar with credit and how these things work. I tried everything I could to return the items to the company (other than just sending it and hoping for the best). 
  • MEM62MEM62 Forumite
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    It is clear that you feel that you are in the right here and, rather than accepting the advice of those knowledgeable people that have responded, you continue to debate or reject it.  I appreciate that this is personal for you but this will not benefit you.  At this stage you only have two options open to you - pay and avoid the legal action progressing or have you day in court and make your case. 
  • SandtreeSandtree Forumite
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    MEM62 said:
    or have you day in court and make your case. 
    Or call their bluff and assume it'll never actually get to court... companies must use legal representation and the cost cannot be recovered and so small claims are rarely economical to pursue, though some will on the principle of the matter.
  • LoobcLoobc Forumite
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    MEM62 said:
    It is clear that you feel that you are in the right here and, rather than accepting the advice of those knowledgeable people that have responded, you continue to debate or reject it.  I appreciate that this is personal for you but this will not benefit you.  At this stage you only have two options open to you - pay and avoid the legal action progressing or have you day in court and make your case. 
    It's not that I'm not accepting it, I am willing and have said to this company several times that I'm happy to return their goods.

    The shame is some people come across on this forum as belittling, saying stuff like 'foolish' isn't helping anyone, the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing, you may have more knowledge that allowed you to act in a different way should something like this happen to you only benefits you at that point. 

    I contacted a merchant within a legal timeframe to return goods, they never responded to me, what would you suggest I do at that point, just send the goods to an unknown address and hope for the best? Or start a dispute and tell your provider what happened and provide proof that you attempted to initiate the returns process twice but nothing happened?

    A company then responds (well after the 14 day return window) calling you a fraudster, telling you the dispute that you have raised is going to cause you financial implications and that it will impact your credit file. So you decide to cover yourself thinking that the best course of action is to let the companies deal with the matter, when you're requested by them to return the goods, great, you'll do that and everything worked out. 

    You get told the case has been settled in your favour but the merchant can respond at anytime and this could change. You get an email from the company requesting payment for something you attempted to return, you reply that you're not paying because you attempted to return it but the company didn't respond as per their own T&Cs, however you offer to return the goods as you understand you can't have the money and the goods but the company tells you they will not accept it because it is not out of the 14 day return window. 

    So yes, this is personal and yes I respond to comments that do not seem helpful and ask questions to the ones I'm unsure of. Lets say this does go to court as the mediation has failed, although I have no idea why they opted for mediation when I have offer 4 times to return the goods and they know I'm not paying for something I have offered to return and attempted to return within my LEGAL timeframe. 

    They may be more knowledgeable but saying 'you're in the wrong' without really going into why I am is why I respond, the company is clearly being awkward for the sake of being awkward, they can happily take the return, they can admit they were wrong and didn't respond to the returns request. Had the first response from them been one of asking why I am disputing this instead of threatening me and calling me a fraudster it could've been resolved then. 

    Maybe I am in the wrong for not return the item when they respond to the dispute (that was the first time they contacted me about any of it and that's because their aggregate got involved, not because of my request) so yes, I feel hard done by that it has got to this point. If you're happy to take the item back after the returns window when the dispute first started but not after it's been settle is because you're on purposely being awkward, me deciding to go down the dispute process still after being threatened is about protecting myself from false claims and having evidence that I took the right steps to get this resolved before it got to a dispute claim. 

    I came here because I wanted to understand what I can do, they broke the law by not responding to a returns request, a dispute was raised because of this, I've never done a dispute, so when being contacted by the merchant outside of this process and threatened I thought it best to leave it with the companies, to me that makes sense. Now I've received notification of a Money Claim from said company who are refusing to accept the return although the first action was me trying to return it. 


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