Credit Card dispute leading to court procedures

in Credit Cards
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  • LoobcLoobc Forumite
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    Sandtree said:
    MEM62 said:
    or have you day in court and make your case. 
    Or call their bluff and assume it'll never actually get to court... companies must use legal representation and the cost cannot be recovered and so small claims are rarely economical to pursue, though some will on the principle of the matter.
    They've already done this, no to mention I contact Citizens Advice who tell me I have acted correctly. 

    This is the action they have taken - gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money I already said this in my first message. 
  • ErgatesErgates Forumite
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    Loobc said:

    I waited 14 days to receive a reply, this never came so I started a dispute with my credit card provider a week or so later I got an email from someone at the company (a different email address to that registered on the site) falsely accusing me of fraud 

    They did not "falsely" accuse of you of fraud.   A false accusation is one where the accuser doesn't actually believe that fraud has been committed.  From their perspective - you order the item, you received the item, you did not return in, then you initiated a charge back:  This very much *looks* like fraud.   It may not have been your intention to do this - but that is, in effect, what you *have* done.  You can argue that the accusation is incorrect (I don't believe you can accidentally commit fraud - what you've done is a mistake), but it is not false.
  • edited 24 November 2021 at 3:24PM
    ThrugelmirThrugelmir Forumite
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    edited 24 November 2021 at 3:24PM
    If you haven't returned the items and also claimed the money. Then that's technically fraud. Expect the company to persue the matter further. 
    It's not 'technically fraud' in any way. Foolish yes, Fraud no.
    Wrongfull deception for personal financial gain. From the Company's perspective that's fraud. 
    Real insurance claim quote : -

    "Going to work at 7am this morning I drove out of my drive straight into a bus. The bus was 5 minutes early.".
  • Loobc said:
    MEM62 said:
    It is clear that you feel that you are in the right here and, rather than accepting the advice of those knowledgeable people that have responded, you continue to debate or reject it.  I appreciate that this is personal for you but this will not benefit you.  At this stage you only have two options open to you - pay and avoid the legal action progressing or have you day in court and make your case. 
    It's not that I'm not accepting it, I am willing and have said to this company several times that I'm happy to return their goods.

    The shame is some people come across on this forum as belittling, saying stuff like 'foolish' isn't helping anyone, the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing, you may have more knowledge that allowed you to act in a different way should something like this happen to you only benefits you at that point. 

    I contacted a merchant within a legal timeframe to return goods, they never responded to me, what would you suggest I do at that point, just send the goods to an unknown address and hope for the best? Or start a dispute and tell your provider what happened and provide proof that you attempted to initiate the returns process twice but nothing happened?

    A company then responds (well after the 14 day return window) calling you a fraudster, telling you the dispute that you have raised is going to cause you financial implications and that it will impact your credit file. So you decide to cover yourself thinking that the best course of action is to let the companies deal with the matter, when you're requested by them to return the goods, great, you'll do that and everything worked out. 

    You get told the case has been settled in your favour but the merchant can respond at anytime and this could change. You get an email from the company requesting payment for something you attempted to return, you reply that you're not paying because you attempted to return it but the company didn't respond as per their own T&Cs, however you offer to return the goods as you understand you can't have the money and the goods but the company tells you they will not accept it because it is not out of the 14 day return window. 

    So yes, this is personal and yes I respond to comments that do not seem helpful and ask questions to the ones I'm unsure of. Lets say this does go to court as the mediation has failed, although I have no idea why they opted for mediation when I have offer 4 times to return the goods and they know I'm not paying for something I have offered to return and attempted to return within my LEGAL timeframe. 

    They may be more knowledgeable but saying 'you're in the wrong' without really going into why I am is why I respond, the company is clearly being awkward for the sake of being awkward, they can happily take the return, they can admit they were wrong and didn't respond to the returns request. Had the first response from them been one of asking why I am disputing this instead of threatening me and calling me a fraudster it could've been resolved then. 

    Maybe I am in the wrong for not return the item when they respond to the dispute (that was the first time they contacted me about any of it and that's because their aggregate got involved, not because of my request) so yes, I feel hard done by that it has got to this point. If you're happy to take the item back after the returns window when the dispute first started but not after it's been settle is because you're on purposely being awkward, me deciding to go down the dispute process still after being threatened is about protecting myself from false claims and having evidence that I took the right steps to get this resolved before it got to a dispute claim. 

    I came here because I wanted to understand what I can do, they broke the law by not responding to a returns request, a dispute was raised because of this, I've never done a dispute, so when being contacted by the merchant outside of this process and threatened I thought it best to leave it with the companies, to me that makes sense. Now I've received notification of a Money Claim from said company who are refusing to accept the return although the first action was me trying to return it. 


    Your response was bizarre.  Perhaps there is some method to the madness but from their perspective, you got the goods and then initiated a chargeback (possibly for non-receipt which would make matters even worse.)  You say you emailed them but is there perhaps a chance that those emails got lost in the ether?  Perhaps an overzealous spam filter?  

    Realistically at the point that they contacted you, you should have tried to sort it out as amicably as possible. Instead, you ignored their request and let the chargeback go through (which again looks a lot like the actions of someone trying to rip them off.)  You can try to defend it by saying that you thought this was the best course of action but I'm struggling to see how a rational person would think these actions reasonable.

    Ultimately as you've been told you have two (technically three I suppose) choices.  Pay them, try and bargain for the return of the item, or roll the dice over whether it actually ends up in court and again to see whether you'll win (I don't see the latter roll going in your favour.)
  • ErgatesErgates Forumite
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    Loobc said:
    If you haven't returned the items and also claimed the money. Then that's technically fraud. Expect the company to persue the matter further. 
    It's not 'technically fraud' in any way. Foolish yes, Fraud no.
    It's not foolish to just send an item to an address and hope for the best but thanks for that condescending reply. I followed their returns process, they did not reply when I tried to start the return. What else can I really do other than start a dispute. 

    No it's not foolish - because that is what you are entitled to do if a company does not provide you with a returns address.   If you are returning an item within the 14 day "cooling off" period*  you even need to wait for them to respond to your emails.  If they've not provided you with a returns address, you may use *any other* address for the company.

    What you are *not* entitled to do is misuse the bank's charge back process to reclaim your money - this is not what chargebacks are for, they're not a DIY refund mechanism.
  • edited 24 November 2021 at 3:30PM
    ThrugelmirThrugelmir Forumite
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    edited 24 November 2021 at 3:30PM
    Loobc said:
    MEM62 said:
    It is clear that you feel that you are in the right here and, rather than accepting the advice of those knowledgeable people that have responded, you continue to debate or reject it.  I appreciate that this is personal for you but this will not benefit you.  At this stage you only have two options open to you - pay and avoid the legal action progressing or have you day in court and make your case. 
    It's not that I'm not accepting it, I am willing and have said to this company several times that I'm happy to return their goods.

    The shame is some people come across on this forum as belittling, saying stuff like 'foolish' isn't helping anyone, the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing, you may have more knowledge that allowed you to act in a different way should something like this happen to you only benefits you at that point. 

    I contacted a merchant within a legal timeframe to return goods, they never responded to me, what would you suggest I do at that point, just send the goods to an unknown address and hope for the best? Or start a dispute and tell your provider what happened and provide proof that you attempted to initiate the returns process twice but nothing happened?

    A company then responds (well after the 14 day return window) calling you a fraudster, telling you the dispute that you have raised is going to cause you financial implications and that it will impact your credit file. So you decide to cover yourself thinking that the best course of action is to let the companies deal with the matter, when you're requested by them to return the goods, great, you'll do that and everything worked out. 

    You get told the case has been settled in your favour but the merchant can respond at anytime and this could change. You get an email from the company requesting payment for something you attempted to return, you reply that you're not paying because you attempted to return it but the company didn't respond as per their own T&Cs, however you offer to return the goods as you understand you can't have the money and the goods but the company tells you they will not accept it because it is not out of the 14 day return window. 

    So yes, this is personal and yes I respond to comments that do not seem helpful and ask questions to the ones I'm unsure of. Lets say this does go to court as the mediation has failed, although I have no idea why they opted for mediation when I have offer 4 times to return the goods and they know I'm not paying for something I have offered to return and attempted to return within my LEGAL timeframe. 

    They may be more knowledgeable but saying 'you're in the wrong' without really going into why I am is why I respond, the company is clearly being awkward for the sake of being awkward, they can happily take the return, they can admit they were wrong and didn't respond to the returns request. Had the first response from them been one of asking why I am disputing this instead of threatening me and calling me a fraudster it could've been resolved then. 

    Maybe I am in the wrong for not return the item when they respond to the dispute (that was the first time they contacted me about any of it and that's because their aggregate got involved, not because of my request) so yes, I feel hard done by that it has got to this point. If you're happy to take the item back after the returns window when the dispute first started but not after it's been settle is because you're on purposely being awkward, me deciding to go down the dispute process still after being threatened is about protecting myself from false claims and having evidence that I took the right steps to get this resolved before it got to a dispute claim. 

    I came here because I wanted to understand what I can do, they broke the law by not responding to a returns request, a dispute was raised because of this, I've never done a dispute, so when being contacted by the merchant outside of this process and threatened I thought it best to leave it with the companies, to me that makes sense. Now I've received notification of a Money Claim from said company who are refusing to accept the return although the first action was me trying to return it. 


    No one is belittling anybody. Be involved at a higher level with any organisation and you'll realise how many shysters there are in this world.  A persons word is often valueless. Perceptions are therefore based entirely on the actions taken. People in companies are simply doing their jobs, emotionally detached. 
    Real insurance claim quote : -

    "Going to work at 7am this morning I drove out of my drive straight into a bus. The bus was 5 minutes early.".
  • edited 24 November 2021 at 4:13PM
    IanMancIanManc Forumite
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    edited 24 November 2021 at 4:13PM
    Ergates said:


    They did not "falsely" accuse of you of fraud.   A false accusation is one where the accuser doesn't actually believe that fraud has been committed.  
    No.

    A false accusation is where an accusation is made contrary to the facts or the truth. An accuser can make a false accusation while sincerely believing that the act has taken place, and that the accused has done the act, where the accused hasn't done so or the act hasn't taken place.

    An accusation where the accuser doesn't actually believe in the truth of the accusation is a malicious accusation / falsehood.
  • SandtreeSandtree Forumite
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    Loobc said:
    Sandtree said:
    MEM62 said:
    or have you day in court and make your case. 
    Or call their bluff and assume it'll never actually get to court... companies must use legal representation and the cost cannot be recovered and so small claims are rarely economical to pursue, though some will on the principle of the matter.
    They've already done this, no to mention I contact Citizens Advice who tell me I have acted correctly. 

    This is the action they have taken - gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money I already said this in my first message. 
    Logging a claim form is not the same as paying a solicitor to represent the company in court (which they cannot recover)... maybe they have qualified solicitors on staff and so the cost is notably less but still at £65k+ salary and considering all the other employment costs it is still the best part of £400 for a days effort to do it all which is money down the drain for them.
  • ThrugelmirThrugelmir Forumite
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    Sandtree said:
    Loobc said:
    Sandtree said:
    MEM62 said:
    or have you day in court and make your case. 
    Or call their bluff and assume it'll never actually get to court... companies must use legal representation and the cost cannot be recovered and so small claims are rarely economical to pursue, though some will on the principle of the matter.
    They've already done this, no to mention I contact Citizens Advice who tell me I have acted correctly. 

    This is the action they have taken - gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money I already said this in my first message. 
    Logging a claim form is not the same as paying a solicitor to represent the company in court (which they cannot recover)... maybe they have qualified solicitors on staff and so the cost is notably less but still at £65k+ salary and considering all the other employment costs it is still the best part of £400 for a days effort to do it all which is money down the drain for them.
    Won't be a court hearing. Judge will adjudicate on submitted evidence alone. Courts are too busy for trivial matters to be heard in person. 
    Real insurance claim quote : -

    "Going to work at 7am this morning I drove out of my drive straight into a bus. The bus was 5 minutes early.".
  • LoobcLoobc Forumite
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    10 Posts First Anniversary
    Your response was bizarre.  Perhaps there is some method to the madness but from their perspective, you got the goods and then initiated a chargeback (possibly for non-receipt which would make matters even worse.)  You say you emailed them but is there perhaps a chance that those emails got lost in the ether?  Perhaps an overzealous spam filter?  

    Realistically at the point that they contacted you, you should have tried to sort it out as amicably as possible. Instead, you ignored their request and let the chargeback go through (which again looks a lot like the actions of someone trying to rip them off.)  You can try to defend it by saying that you thought this was the best course of action but I'm struggling to see how a rational person would think these actions reasonable.

    Ultimately as you've been told you have two (technically three I suppose) choices.  Pay them, try and bargain for the return of the item, or roll the dice over whether it actually ends up in court and again to see whether you'll win (I don't see the latter roll going in your favour.)
    I really can't stress enough, because I'm not sure it is sinking it, I have said on multiple occasions throughout the process I am happy to return the goods, I said that in my first message and I've said it in multiple replies, the company is refusing to accept and return. They are refusing, I am NOT refusing to send the item back. My first reply to them even said I am happy to send the items back when it has been dealt with by both companies. 
    Ergates said:
    Loobc said:

    I waited 14 days to receive a reply, this never came so I started a dispute with my credit card provider a week or so later I got an email from someone at the company (a different email address to that registered on the site) falsely accusing me of fraud 

    They did not "falsely" accuse of you of fraud.   A false accusation is one where the accuser doesn't actually believe that fraud has been committed.  From their perspective - you order the item, you received the item, you did not return in, then you initiated a charge back:  This very much *looks* like fraud.   It may not have been your intention to do this - but that is, in effect, what you *have* done.  You can argue that the accusation is incorrect (I don't believe you can accidentally commit fraud - what you've done is a mistake), but it is not false.
    Oh, you got their email did you? You've seen it? You've read it? Great what did it say? Because I don't remember posting it? So please tell me how you can say "They did not "falsely" accuse of you of fraud" then?

    Their returns process in their T&Cs says to email them, there is NO address. None, I can't return something to an address that does not exist on their site. I'm lost to the point of this reply, I honestly am. I have not made any mistake, I'm sorry I have a right to return an item and start a returns process, if the company states you MUST email them and they do not respond, they do not a contact number to call, so you send another email they do not respond. What else can I do other than start a dispute, tell my card provider what happened and let them deal with it. That is the point of buying on a card, to protect yourself when issues with companies happen. 

    Thrugelmir said:
    No one is belittling anybody. Be involved at a higher level with any organisation and you'll realise how many shysters there are in this world.  A persons word is often valueless. Perceptions are therefore based entirely on the actions taken. People in companies are simply doing their jobs, emotionally detached. 
    Some of the replies have been, calling someone foolish is belittling.... This company is a one man band, there is emotion in it I am sure. You wouldn't do all of this for £75, when you have been provided evidence (multiple times) that emails were sent to start a return.

    Loobc said:
    A company then responds (well after the 14 day return window) calling you a fraudster, telling you the dispute that you have raised is going to cause you financial implications and that it will impact your credit file. So you decide to cover yourself thinking that the best course of action is to let the companies deal with the matter, when you're requested by them to return the goods, great, you'll do that and everything worked out. 
    Your response was bizarre.  Perhaps there is some method to the madness but from their perspective, you got the goods and then initiated a chargeback (possibly for non-receipt which would make matters even worse.)  You say you emailed them but is there perhaps a chance that those emails got lost in the ether?  Perhaps an overzealous spam filter?  

    Realistically at the point that they contacted you, you should have tried to sort it out as amicably as possible. Instead, you ignored their request and let the chargeback go through (which again looks a lot like the actions of someone trying to rip them off.)  You can try to defend it by saying that you thought this was the best course of action but I'm struggling to see how a rational person would think these actions reasonable.

    Ultimately as you've been told you have two (technically three I suppose) choices.  Pay them, try and bargain for the return of the item, or roll the dice over whether it actually ends up in court and again to see whether you'll win (I don't see the latter roll going in your favour.)
    I didn't set the dispute up, my card provider did, I told them what happened, however they set it up is on them (could now be impacting me) 

    I did try and sort it out amicably but being threatened ultimately made me go the way of letting the companies resolve it, whilst saying I'm happy to return said item when it has been dealt with and again offering to return the item several times since, I didn't ignore 

    Whilst I can see what you're saying but responding to the email saying 'Yes I have received the goods, I've never claimed I haven't. I simply attempted to return them to you within my 14 day window and you never responded to my email request as (pre your own T&Cs and provided print screens of the emails) I wasn't sure what else to do.  

    Then still being called a fraudster and that I'll have issues with buying from said aggregate was my reason, if I let my company and their aggregate deal with it how can I possibly have issues with them? 

    I am not paying for something I tried to return within my legal time frame, I followed all their T&Cs and returns policies. I am as stated and advised to them from the start happy to return said item.Ergates said:
    Loobc said:
    Thrugelmir said:
    If you haven't returned the items and also claimed the money. Then that's technically fraud. Expect the company to persue the matter further. 
    It's not 'technically fraud' in any way. Foolish yes, Fraud no.
    It's not foolish to just send an item to an address and hope for the best but thanks for that condescending reply. I followed their returns process, they did not reply when I tried to start the return. What else can I really do other than start a dispute. 

    No it's not foolish - because that is what you are entitled to do if a company does not provide you with a returns address.   If you are returning an item within the 14 day "cooling off" period*  you even need to wait for them to respond to your emails.  If they've not provided you with a returns address, you may use *any other* address for the company.

    What you are *not* entitled to do is misuse the bank's charge back process to reclaim your money - this is not what chargebacks are for, they're not a DIY refund mechanism.
    I don't think you've read anything if I'm honest, I really don't. You go by what is on said companies return policy, there's was to email and arrange it that way, as I've said they do not have a returns address on their website, I guess it is supplied when they or I should say if they respond to your returns email request. 

    I *did not* misuse a chargeback process, I told my company what happened and provided PROOF of what I did and the attempts to create a return, along with the company's return policy.

    -------

    My issues with some of the replies is the assumption that I want both the money back and the item, I do not. I never did that's why I tried to start the returns process. My mistake I guess is that I should've ignored a threat about a dispute impacting my credit file, having issues with future credit / CRAs and not being able to use one of the biggest payment aggregate out there. 

    For someone that has been buying items online for years, who buys 1000s of items for personal and business usage this is the first time I've 'not' been able to start a return or get a response from a merchant to start a return. I think that says volumes about the company I opted to do business with. My fault. I guess a small business with no real details and a poor 
    was my fault, you live and you learn. 

    website Thrugelmir said:
    Thrugelmir said:
    If you haven't returned the items and also claimed the money. Then that's technically fraud. Expect the company to persue the matter further. 
    It's not 'technically fraud' in any way. Foolish yes, Fraud no.
    Wrongfull deception for personal financial gain. From the Company's perspective that's fraud. 

    Same could be said for them not responding to the returns request before the dispute took place surely? 
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