No pet clause in share of freehold

FataVerde

eddddy said:

In general, the way a freeholder would enforce a lease term is:

• The freeholder would write to you saying that by keeping the cat you are in breach of your lease, and threatening to forfeit your lease (i.e. repossess your flat). And you'd be charged fees for the letter.

• The freeholder would instruct their solicitor to write to you - again threatening forfeiture of the lease. And you'd be charged solicitor's fees.

• The freeholder would probably contact your mortgage lender - who would start to get very worried about the risk of your lease being forfeited. So they would start hassling you.

• The freeholder would then make an application to the tribunal to forfeit your lease.

But since you would be a joint freeholder, all the above would usually need your agreement. And I doubt you would give your agreement. (Unless there is a clause in the lease which says what happens when the joint freeholders can't agree on something - like perhaps it has to be decided by an independent 3rd party.)


But the downside is... if your neighbour decided to breach the lease in a way that annoyed you, you would have equal difficulty enforcing the lease.

The original Lease says "if any disagreement or dispute shall arise between the Lessee and the said other tenants or lessees of the Lessor [...]  such disagreement or dispute shall be referred to the determination and award of the Surveyor or Agent for the time being of the Lessor which determination and award when communicated in writing to the parties shall be final and binding upon them (...) The fees of the Surveyor or Agent of the Lessor shall be borne by the parties to the disagreement or dispute in equal shares." The renewal lease created when the freehold was bought states "This lease and any dispute or claim arising out of or in connection with it or its subject matter or formation (including non-contractual disputes or claims) shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the law of England and Wales." and "The parties irrevocably agree that the courts of England and Wales shall have exclusive jurisdiction to settle and dispute that arises in connection with this lease."

Does this mean we have to take each other to court if we disagree on anything?

user1977

FataVerde said:

eddddy said:

In general, the way a freeholder would enforce a lease term is:

• The freeholder would write to you saying that by keeping the cat you are in breach of your lease, and threatening to forfeit your lease (i.e. repossess your flat). And you'd be charged fees for the letter.

• The freeholder would instruct their solicitor to write to you - again threatening forfeiture of the lease. And you'd be charged solicitor's fees.

• The freeholder would probably contact your mortgage lender - who would start to get very worried about the risk of your lease being forfeited. So they would start hassling you.

• The freeholder would then make an application to the tribunal to forfeit your lease.

But since you would be a joint freeholder, all the above would usually need your agreement. And I doubt you would give your agreement. (Unless there is a clause in the lease which says what happens when the joint freeholders can't agree on something - like perhaps it has to be decided by an independent 3rd party.)


But the downside is... if your neighbour decided to breach the lease in a way that annoyed you, you would have equal difficulty enforcing the lease.

Does this mean we have to take each other to court if we disagree on anything?

Sounds like it. Which is preferable to the freeholder's surveyor adjudicating on everything!

FataVerde

FataVerde said:

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Does this mean we have to take each other to court if we disagree on anything?

Sounds like it. Which is preferable to the freeholder's surveyor adjudicating on everything!

Yes, the cat would have to be a real nuisance for someone to take me to court over her

eddddy

FataVerde said:

Yes, the cat would have to be a real nuisance for someone to take me to court over her

But it's a 'double edged sword'.

If you had a dispute with the neighbour because they got a barking dog, or rented their flat out as a party flat on AirBnB, or decided to sell personal services from their flat,  etc - you'd have to take them to court.

It might be quicker, easier and cheaper if the lease specified a different route for resolving disputes.

980233

FataVerde said:

bouicca21 said:

Just knock on the neighbour’s door (perhaps with cake in case you get invited in),  introduce yourself and ask how they feel about cats.

All the flats in my block are allowed one pet.  One has two but they are indoor cats so no one is going to complain.  An outdoor cat pooping in the garden and deterring the birds would seriously !!!!!! me off, but I’d probably seethe rather than complain.  If the neighbour wants to attract birds they may well object to a cat.

PS we also have a no washing to be hung out clause, and we are not allowed to be immoral …

I did knock on their door and the neighbour didn't want to talk and closed the door lol I can't be immoral either Yes, Piper might deter the birds, not sure what she's up too, but I'd be happy to hang a bell to her collar. I never minded other people's cats in my garden before even having a cat. I only really mind noise at night/early morning (barking etc)

And yet you still want to proceed with this purchase. Walk, nay run or buy a place that doesn't need any sort or consent. Simples. 

FataVerde

eddddy said:

FataVerde said:

Yes, the cat would have to be a real nuisance for someone to take me to court over her

But it's a 'double edged sword'.

If you had a dispute with the neighbour because they got a barking dog, or rented their flat out as a party flat on AirBnB, or decided to sell personal services from their flat,  etc - you'd have to take them to court.

It might be quicker, easier and cheaper if the lease specified a different route for resolving disputes.

Yes, what other options for resolving disputes are there in 50%-50% share of freeholds?

On pets, I'll ask if we can update the clause or if I can have at least informal consent. In this case, I really don't see how a cat can be a (serious) nuisance. By raising the question, I'll at least get a sense of the neighbour's views.

On subletting/renting out, there are actually some confusing clauses in the lease.

Slinky

I would be more concerned about the lack of engagement with the next door neighbour. The refusal to talk to her new next door neighbour would be a red flag to me.  OK, so you were a stranger when you knocked on the door, but with a perfectly reasonable 'Hello, I'm xxx buying the property next door' explained perfectly who you are.  The vendor offering to introduce you after exchange suggests to me there could be neighbour issues and by then it would be too late for you to change your mind without incurring massive costs.

I recently had a long chat with a chap buying the house 4 doors away who came and knocked on my door asking about a potential problem with a lintel in his intended purchase. I was very happy to tell him what I knew from the problems we had had with ours, and put a welcome card through his door on the day I saw him moving in.  

980233

FataVerde said:

eddddy said:

FataVerde said:

Yes, the cat would have to be a real nuisance for someone to take me to court over her

But it's a 'double edged sword'.

If you had a dispute with the neighbour because they got a barking dog, or rented their flat out as a party flat on AirBnB, or decided to sell personal services from their flat,  etc - you'd have to take them to court.

It might be quicker, easier and cheaper if the lease specified a different route for resolving disputes.

Yes, what other options for resolving disputes are there in 50%-50% share of freeholds?

On pets, I'll ask if we can update the clause or if I can have at least informal consent. In this case, I really don't see how a cat can be a (serious) nuisance. By raising the question, I'll at least get a sense of the neighbour's views.

On subletting/renting out, there are actually some confusing clauses in the lease.

Two hopes, Bob and No Hope

AskAsk

Slinky said:

I would be more concerned about the lack of engagement with the next door neighbour. The refusal to talk to her new next door neighbour would be a red flag to me.  OK, so you were a stranger when you knocked on the door, but with a perfectly reasonable 'Hello, I'm xxx buying the property next door' explained perfectly who you are.  The vendor offering to introduce you after exchange suggests to me there could be neighbour issues and by then it would be too late for you to change your mind without incurring massive costs.

I recently had a long chat with a chap buying the house 4 doors away who came and knocked on my door asking about a potential problem with a lintel in his intended purchase. I was very happy to tell him what I knew from the problems we had had with ours, and put a welcome card through his door on the day I saw him moving in.  

i agree.  the neighbour and co-freeholder sounds difficult already, which may become an issue going forward if they have 50% share of the freehold.

it is not natural that they won't talk to you OP as most people are friendly and would be quite happy to meet potential co-freeholders.  if you were asking about the house then they should be quite happy to discuss aspects with you in general. 

of course it is not usual for co-freeholders to meet the others before purchase but if someone specifically wanted to have a friendly chat, refusing to do so would give me worries.

SavingPennies_2

You say the cat is mostly outdoors like that's a good thing but that's likely to be more of a potential issue. The neighbour may not take kindly to it using the garden as a toilet and generally being around the property/ garden, and if it's a shared entrance, letting it in an out the front door and using a communal area if there is one, much less of an issue if you both have private entrances, not sure of that's the case? Not having a go btw, I have a cat myself.

I also think refusing to speak to you is a red flag, most people would manage even a brief and polite hello, especially to a potential new neighbour.