No pet clause in share of freehold

thegreenone

AskAsk said:

Murphybear said:

We bought a bungalow a few years ago and weren’t allowed to keep pigs anywhere on the property 

our deed doesn't allow us to keep chickens.  doesn't prohibits other animals so we would be fine to keep pigs.  there must have a problem with people having chickens around here, lol 

Pigs, poultry and a caravan here.  I didn't want to be a smallholder anyway!  Nothing on domestic animals.

doodling

Hi,

AskAsk said:

Murphybear said:

We bought a bungalow a few years ago and weren’t allowed to keep pigs anywhere on the property 

our deed doesn't allow us to keep chickens.  doesn't prohibits other animals so we would be fine to keep pigs.  there must have a problem with people having chickens around here, lol 

Whilst this is drifting away from the OP's point, provisions in deeds, leases and tenancies banning the keeping of hens and rabbits on a non-commercial basis have been void since the Allotments Act 1950 (subject to them being kept in a manner so as to avoid nuisance).  (Note that that clause of the act applies to all land, not just allotments).

FataVerde

SavingPennies_2 said:

You say the cat is mostly outdoors like that's a good thing but that's likely to be more of a potential issue. The neighbour may not take kindly to it using the garden as a toilet and generally being around the property/ garden, and if it's a shared entrance, letting it in an out the front door and using a communal area if there is one, much less of an issue if you both have private entrances, not sure of that's the case? Not having a go btw, I have a cat myself.

I also think refusing to speak to you is a red flag, most people would manage even a brief and polite hello, especially to a potential new neighbour.

The cat would not go through communal indoor areas except in her travel bag when I move in and take her to the vet. Her exit to the garden is through the door cat flap (yes the flat has a cat flap despite the no pet policy). Well, the neighbour might not like cats in her garden, but she will definitely have them in a row of gardens, whether it be my cat or others. I have several cats patrolling through my garden now and, of course, they are not always my immediate neighbours'. When I moved in, I didn't have a cat and there was this one kitty visiting occasionally. He was cute but he would poop in every hole I made in the garden to plant sth I didn't like it but I didn't know who their owner was. Most importantly, I took for granted the fact that having an outdoors place exposed it to animals and potential poops. We have foxes in our gardens too and they also poop and also chewed my favourite Birkenstocks. I had a good laugh and ordered another pair. What I am trying to say is that you can't prevent every nuisance in your outdoors space. You have to be reasonable. 

eddddy

FataVerde said:

What I am trying to say is that you can't prevent every nuisance in your outdoors space. You have to be reasonable. 

Just to be clear - in this case, it's not really correct to say "You have to be reasonable".

It's more correct to say "You have to follow the terms of the lease" - even if you (and/or others) think the terms of the lease are unreasonable.


If this really did end up in court, it would be decided on the basis of what the lease said, not on the basis of what was reasonable.

Gavin83

There are ways to prevent neighbouring cats coming into your garden if you’re so inclined.

Look, I get you like cats and you don’t see them as a problem but others won’t agree. I know you’re attempting to convince us how the rules won’t apply to your cat or find a loophole but honestly there’s so many potential problems here I’d suggest you walk away. The neighbour doesn’t sound like the most reasonable of people and they could make life very difficult for you.

If you buy this house I guarantee you you’ll be posting here in a years time asking how you can deal with the latest problem.

She may not have a problem but assuming she does you’ve got major issues either way. If she can enforce this term then you’ll end up having to choose between your house and your cat. If she can’t enforce this term this then means you can’t enforce it on her as well and it would at the very least be extremely easy for her to prevent your cat from using the garden.

The exception to all this is if you can get the clause removed. Otherwise walk away. 

user1977

eddddy said:

FataVerde said:

What I am trying to say is that you can't prevent every nuisance in your outdoors space. You have to be reasonable. 

If this really did end up in court, it would be decided on the basis of what the lease said, not on the basis of what was reasonable.

Indeed - and this clause (unlike some other examples) doesn't require any reasonableness on the part of the freeholder - it's just their subjective opinion.

SavingPennies_2

FataVerde said:

SavingPennies_2 said:

You say the cat is mostly outdoors like that's a good thing but that's likely to be more of a potential issue. The neighbour may not take kindly to it using the garden as a toilet and generally being around the property/ garden, and if it's a shared entrance, letting it in an out the front door and using a communal area if there is one, much less of an issue if you both have private entrances, not sure of that's the case? Not having a go btw, I have a cat myself.

I also think refusing to speak to you is a red flag, most people would manage even a brief and polite hello, especially to a potential new neighbour.

The cat would not go through communal indoor areas except in her travel bag when I move in and take her to the vet. Her exit to the garden is through the door cat flap (yes the flat has a cat flap despite the no pet policy). Well, the neighbour might not like cats in her garden, but she will definitely have them in a row of gardens, whether it be my cat or others. I have several cats patrolling through my garden now and, of course, they are not always my immediate neighbours'. When I moved in, I didn't have a cat and there was this one kitty visiting occasionally. He was cute but he would poop in every hole I made in the garden to plant sth I didn't like it but I didn't know who their owner was. Most importantly, I took for granted the fact that having an outdoors place exposed it to animals and potential poops. We have foxes in our gardens too and they also poop and also chewed my favourite Birkenstocks. I had a good laugh and ordered another pair. What I am trying to say is that you can't prevent every nuisance in your outdoors space. You have to be reasonable. 

You don't need to convince me, I have a cat, I love cats, I will tolerate other cats in my garden. However, the point I'm making is that not everyone agrees, and your new neighbour may be one of them. She won't be able to do much about the cats that live down the road, she will (if she wants to) complain about your cat because she knows it's your cat and she knows where you live. You said it yourself "I didn't like it but I didn't know who their owner was". At least it has it's own catflap though, and this does suggest previous cats have been accepted, tbh if you move in I'm not sure there's that much realistically anyone can do but it might not make for a nice environment if you have tension with the neighbour where there already seems to be some issue going on with the previous owner.

lookstraightahead

This is really to do with what individuals find acceptable, and I would say the rules are there to protect the difference in peoples reasonableness.

what if you moved in and the neighbour bought 5 dogs (I know I'm exaggerating but some people love dogs).

I love cats and dogs, my friend is petrified of dogs and allergic to cats.

You need a place where you can have a pet free of worry. This isn't it. 

AskAsk

doodling said:

Hi,

AskAsk said:

Murphybear said:

We bought a bungalow a few years ago and weren’t allowed to keep pigs anywhere on the property 

our deed doesn't allow us to keep chickens.  doesn't prohibits other animals so we would be fine to keep pigs.  there must have a problem with people having chickens around here, lol 

Whilst this is drifting away from the OP's point, provisions in deeds, leases and tenancies banning the keeping of hens and rabbits on a non-commercial basis have been void since the Allotments Act 1950 (subject to them being kept in a manner so as to avoid nuisance).  (Note that that clause of the act applies to all land, not just allotments).

that is interesting to know.  what about hanging washing out on the weekend and public holidays??  for some reason our deed has this in it which doesn't make a lot of sense as that is when most people hang their washing out when they are not at work and can do the washing.

FataVerde

SavingPennies_2 said:

FataVerde said:

SavingPennies_2 said:

You say the cat is mostly outdoors like that's a good thing but that's likely to be more of a potential issue. The neighbour may not take kindly to it using the garden as a toilet and generally being around the property/ garden, and if it's a shared entrance, letting it in an out the front door and using a communal area if there is one, much less of an issue if you both have private entrances, not sure of that's the case? Not having a go btw, I have a cat myself.

I also think refusing to speak to you is a red flag, most people would manage even a brief and polite hello, especially to a potential new neighbour.

The cat would not go through communal indoor areas except in her travel bag when I move in and take her to the vet. Her exit to the garden is through the door cat flap (yes the flat has a cat flap despite the no pet policy). Well, the neighbour might not like cats in her garden, but she will definitely have them in a row of gardens, whether it be my cat or others. I have several cats patrolling through my garden now and, of course, they are not always my immediate neighbours'. When I moved in, I didn't have a cat and there was this one kitty visiting occasionally. He was cute but he would poop in every hole I made in the garden to plant sth I didn't like it but I didn't know who their owner was. Most importantly, I took for granted the fact that having an outdoors place exposed it to animals and potential poops. We have foxes in our gardens too and they also poop and also chewed my favourite Birkenstocks. I had a good laugh and ordered another pair. What I am trying to say is that you can't prevent every nuisance in your outdoors space. You have to be reasonable. 

You don't need to convince me, I have a cat, I love cats, I will tolerate other cats in my garden. However, the point I'm making is that not everyone agrees, and your new neighbour may be one of them. She won't be able to do much about the cats that live down the road, she will (if she wants to) complain about your cat because she knows it's your cat and she knows where you live. You said it yourself "I didn't like it but I didn't know who their owner was". At least it has it's own catflap though, and this does suggest previous cats have been accepted, tbh if you move in I'm not sure there's that much realistically anyone can do but it might not make for a nice environment if you have tension with the neighbour where there already seems to be some issue going on with the previous owner.

Yes, I'm glad I discovered the clause before advancing with the purchase. The only way forward is for them to accept a change of clause. The problem for me is that the current clause does not ban "pets that cause an annoyance" where I suspect any complaint would have to prove annoyance, but ban 'animals who in then opinion of the Lessor could cause annoyance.' How do I define the opinion? Plus, apparently, while 'nuisance' is a legal term, 'annoyance' isn't so much harder to rely on.