Energy news in general

Mstty

Hot off the twitter press

Scot_39

markin said:

E10 is just too long and inflexible, I think eventually it will be tou 30min 24/7 then with the car, heatpumps ect deciding when to run

E10 is in fact a much better tariff for electric heating. 

Do you actually have electric heating ?

It provides notably higher off peak pricing than many e7, but does so at times of day when i suspect people are actually normally awake (so currently in my region 1-4pm and 8-10pm).

And again for electric heating - a much better system for older less well insulated -  heat leaky if you like - storage heaters  - and still used by 100,000s if not millions of the c4m off gas grid homes in the UK.

Avoiding the crunch period - for heavy load devices - things like washing machines, dish washers, even cooking if can be flexible, is easy and actively encouraged.

And avoids the potentially anti social trend of e7 users using noisy devices like washing machines and dishwashers overnight - which can and do cause noise issues for their neighbours - depending on property layouts.

And as 100% predictable - becomes easier to adapt too.

Scot_39

Suspect 400MW might have been the average over the day for coal, but from 4:00 am it was ramping up to over 1GW - and at 6pm crunch period peaked at 2GW - on the grid.iamkate monitoring site trends.

The news that the current scheme only saves a 1/10th of that generating capacity - and an even tinier fraction of peak demand c40GW) at 200MW is quite telling in its usefulness - but at £3/kWh ? that's still a lot of money (£600,000?) per session.

That will be baked into everyone's bill - to reflect grid costs and to protect future profit margins.

In the same way as SofLR penalise all. 

And arguably as driven by gas prices  - SofLR should have gone on gas tariffs as well - not just electric SC.  Meaning 4m off gas grid homes faced more than their fair share of the costs.

markin

Yes E10 is great for people, But terrible for the Grid now that it has no coal burning all nigh 365 days a year.

bristolleedsfan

Scot_39 said:

In the same way as SofLR penalise all. 

And arguably as driven by gas prices  - should have gone on gas tariffs as well - not just electric SC.  Meaning 4m off gas grid homes faced more than their fair share of the costs.

Note last paragraph.

Scot_39

markin said:

Yes E10 is great for people, But terrible for the Grid now that it has no coal burning all nigh 365 days a year.

Out of date re generation characteristics and just wrong on so many levels.  Apart from the bit about no coal.

E10 users actually have less time off peak overnight than e7 - 5 hours rather than 7.

So by that - completely false - argument - it would arguably actually be a better tariff than e7 - the one still supported by Ofgem to some extent - and most suppliers.

And for those with conventional NSH - they can charge them far less during that period - as can top them up mid afternoon and mid evening - when people actually need the heat. 

So again better by that false rational.

E10 actively and regularly "and importantly consistently (as fixed hours)" encourages users to avoid day time peak consumption - I would never use my washing machine at 6pm - but before 4 or after 8. It would simply cost twice as much on my day rate.  Which would be true even for 20m gas grid homes.
Added "Most people dont want to be watching their tariff every 30m to make these decisions - and most devices aren't linked to tariff rates yet.  Although I did see that dimplex are now linking there rf range to some special deal at ovo via net and their local rf hub. - maybe that's flexible time of use tariff based."

It actually is probably the best "current" tariff for smoothing grid demand right now for most homes.

For both those reasons.

But Ofgem's glorious history of failure rules the day.

And do you even realise how high UK demand is overnight - it doesn't fall to zero just because majority are in bed. 

Overnight, this mornings low was c27GW at c530am - more than half yesterday's c44.5 GW peak demand at tea time.
My E10 wasn't using any of that for hot water or heating - others E7 might have been. 
And of course you seem to assume domestic is the only loading.

And then there's the complete lack of understanding of generation plant characteristics - coal plants are load reactive - even modern nuclear - even more so for the design for Hinkley, Sizewell etc - if and when they eventually come on line.

And remqining nuclear - nowhere near enough to meet overnight demand - 27GW - 4GW nuclear = 15% - and gas still double that at c8.5GW.

So like on Tuesday - you could see the output from the 2 coal plants ramp up from c4am, from near enough zero to c1GW and fluctuate 1-1.5 GW to a peak c2GW to match demand spike by say  6pm during the day - just as grid wholesale price spiked at £1950 - as demand peaked and wind dropped from c4pm - failing to match our actual need yet again. 

So even then there was no coal for most of both Mon and Tues nights - but there was still that 2GW - about 5% of demand - to help reduce the £1950 peak price at 630pm Tuesday. 

And then when it ramped down late evening.  Replaced by gas - and its emissions instead.  Not renewables, not nuclear but gas.

Scot_39

Mstty said:

Hot off the twitter press

That's terrible news - electric up c40% but gas only 10% - if the epg rises.  Far higher than estimates seen here which were nearer 41p by users.

And of course many all electric homes are at the low end of the housing scale - and a lot of bespoke retirement properties are all electric.

Manh richer folk have already gone solar or heat pump to mitigate off "gas" grid living. 

Luxuries the poor, those in flats and many renters just Don't have.

Must look again at the Ofgem tables for the source.  But from memory gas was almost as cheap from Ofgem so couldn't see how could use the same overall discount split at tdcv at the £3000 level as last 6m.  So not surprised to some extent by the lower differential.


Edit just read through link - including watching the tv show clip tabling these numbers and Schapps widely agreeing with them is in post link at top of page


https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2023/03/martin-lewis-standing-charge-energy-price-guarantee

nekr0mantik

if the electric prices are linked to gas then why is there a big difference in prices? 

Scot_39

MattMattMattUK said:

murphyslaw2020 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Mstty said:

BBC News - Energy firms expect bill help to continue in April

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64830701

Another awful financial decision from the Conservatives, I am shocked...

There are some people in desperate need and cannot manage the energy price rises. 

Allowing the EPG to rise would not have actually made a huge amount of difference due to seasonal reductions in energy usage. On top of that blanket subsidy is the lease effective way to help those in genuine need.

murphyslaw2020 said: 

I wouldn’t say it’s an awful financial decision.

Spending £2.6 billion on increasing subsidy across the board. Low income households are already being given an additional £900 over the next year (costing £7.2 billion) on top of a 10.1% rise in benefits.

No some low income households - not all.

As usual those just making do above the cut offs find themselves potentially worse off.

It's strange the govt can taper schemes - like child benefit charge recovery - or working tax credit taper.

 But insists on archaic absolutes for other key aid.

Like pensions credit for poorer pensioners - a penny over - and no grant, no auto savings on council tax, new glasses, dentist etc.

Leaving them actually poorer.

Scot_39

nekr0mantik said:

if the electric prices are linked to gas then why is there a big difference in prices? 

The cost of power stations to burn it.

Just as likes of BG will charge £3000+ for even a small combi boiler every 10-20 years and £100s to service and maintain it annually - generators have costs (loans on buildings, maintenance, wages etc etc.)

Those differences may seem low at current high energy prices  - but when gas 4p a unit  - a massive overhead.

We pay one ourselves directly - or via rent as the landlords do if renting - and the other via our unit rates.

It makes the xxp vs yyp arguments difficult.

The real scandal is the grid pricing system - which CfD is trying to mitigate over time - that sees everyone on old contracts charge through at "highest" rate - old nuclear, old renewables etc - at that higher - gas rate (c45p wholesale last summer - now ?)