Crypto Dabble.

Gary1984

darren232002 said:

Gary1984 said:

So you admit it's not risk free. Just because you think the interest is enough to justify the risk of Binance or whoever going bust or running off with your tokens does not make it risk free but closer to a corporate bond in nature.

tebbins said:

"Returns (of 7-8% you say) more than compensate for the counter party risk" so there is counter party risk of a 100% loss, the opposite of what you said earlier.

Comprehension is not your forte guys.

This isn't a revolutionary tactic employed by giga-brains, its a trivial strategy that goes on all the time in a wide variety of markets. My point was that it is blindingly obvious to me that you don't have the knowledge and intellect to understand how you can use the options & futures markets to capture spread without exposure to the underlying asset. Seriously, that's all it is - That's the explanation! One other poster compared it to matched betting, which is a decent analogy.

We can't comprehend something you appear unable to explain. Until you can explain how it's possible I will continue to believe that risk free returns of 8% in GBP or USD terms is impossible.

Everything you say is just waffle and bluster and the sooner the mods ban all these threads the better. 

User232002

Would you like to succinctly state your definition of intrinsic value? From the looks of your post, you seem to be stating that anything that can generate an ongoing income has intrinsic value. If you want to use that I'm fine with it, but this isn't the definition that lay people are using when they talk about Bitcoin having no intrinsic value. Using this definition, can we agree then that intangible (IP or digital assets) property can have intrinsic value equal to physical property?

So, using the above definition, Bitcoin mining companies have intrinsic value. They have ongoing income from the sale of mined Bitcoin. Correct? What about crypto assets like sushi, aave or even bnb that are generating billions of dollars in transaction fees/interest payments and distributing that back to the token holders? That's ongoing future revenue where the token behaves very similarly to a share in a company. What about Ethereum, which in the last 3 months has burnt $1.4B of ETH in transaction fees, thereby reducing the available supply and increasing the value of the remaining tokens. Fees burnt is ongoing income of the protocol that directly accrues to the holders of the network asset, in this case ETH.

I'm making these arguments for these assets instead of Bitcoin because its easier, but if all we care about is ongoing income and you can currently use BTC to capture relatively large spreads in a variety of ways, then why can Bitcoin not be said to have intrinsic value? Sure, its not the primary use case of Bitcoin in my eyes, but it can be done.

Hansplace

What are your thoughts on staking Ethereum?
Coinbase offering 5% only but can only unstake once Ether 2.0 is fully deployed in 2022 or 2024

User232002

There are options available where you can get 'staked ETH' tokens in exchange for your ETH which allows you to trade it even though the actual ETH is staked. It currently trades at a tiny discount to normal ETH, which I actually think is a bit bizarre (just checked and ETH is $3286 and stETH is $3270). I know of lido, but I don't know much about providers. Be careful of gas fees though... If you're moving like $1k you'll make $50 in staking but have to pay $60 or w/e to move it. ETH in general is really only usable if you have large size.  

Personally, I decided not to stake it. Firstly, ETH has notoriously overshot their targets so I have little faith that it'll actually be ready in Q1/2 2022 (though they did actually pull off EIP1559 and I think the ETH community are very aware that they have serious competition this time from SOL which should incentivise them to hit their targets). Secondly, all that ETH coming unlocked at a time when the price of ETH may have potentially 20 or 30x'd from when it was locked up may very well lead to a lot of selling. I'd like the flexibility to front run that wave. Plus, 5% is basically nothing in this market. 

However, plenty of my smarter crypto friends disagree with this and I'm probably wrong. For example, you can make the argument that because its possible to trade them now, there won't be a selloff when it unlocks and/or that the people that staked are more likely to be the coders/whales who probably intend to hold until like 2030 anyway. Its probably a +EV move to stake it, but inertia is keeping me from doing it. 

6022tivo

Not read the 9 pages, so don't know the theme the chat has been going in, but my input..

I've recently starting understanding and investing. 
It's a technology that's not going away and when people actually understand it they will realise that it's not just speculation. 

Most currencies have a purpose, and the tech that runs them can run many other things. 

I've recently used bitcoin to buy and sell things, some from reputable websites. 

It's a minefield tho, but not that difficult to understand. 

Long term, I feel there's only 3 or 4 that will get great gains, the others are pure speculation, but the potential of any of them is massive as an investor. 

I've given up on negative comments, most of these are traditional investors who fear new things and don't understand them. That's fine tho, no one is forcing crypto on anyone. 

Dandytf

I've reacted too quickly to crypto drop since Chinese crackdown.
looks like I'm witnessing Volatility rather than major sell off.  
Though i don't have investor knowledge, I enjoy FT articles, and found talk of ETH possibly being useful when web 3.0 arrives.

robatwork

Didn't there used to be a betting/gambling forum on here? That would be more suitable for this discussion than saving/investing.
I note almost all the contributors to this thread are very low mileage posters. 

Adyinvestment

6022tivo said:

I've given up on negative comments, most of these are traditional investors who fear new things and don't understand them. That's fine tho, no one is forcing crypto on anyone. 

Yes, this is the conclusion I have come to a while ago - there is no point trying to convince anybody. If someone can't see or understand what is changing in the world of finance and innovation with everything that is happening then it is a waste of time, I have no grudge against them and wish them well.

What I do find a little annoying on this forum particularly, is the amount of posters who feel it necessary to try to shut down any crypto discussions without adding anything useful or any productive counter arguments, they feel the need to just dismiss it and want to stop any conversations about it full-stop. There are only a few crypto threads and it is only a matter of time before one comes along calling it a ponzi/scam/gamble etc.

The funny thing is that most of the financial institutions these posters are invested in and trust with their pensions etc are chomping at the bit to get more crypto exposure - some of the huge names that these posters regularly talk about all the time on here such as Blackrock/Vanguard/Fidelity etc already have crypto exposure and I would imagine some posters have exposure to the Bitcoin price in their portfolios without even realising it.

It is a shame because these threads usually end up as a heated argument with neither side coming out well and the whole point of the thread going out the window.

Thrugelmir

Adyinvestment said:

6022tivo said:

I've given up on negative comments, most of these are traditional investors who fear new things and don't understand them. That's fine tho, no one is forcing crypto on anyone. 

What I do find a little annoying on this forum particularly, is the amount of posters who feel it necessary to try to shut down any crypto discussions without adding anything useful or any productive counter arguments, they feel the need to just dismiss it and want to stop any conversations about it full-stop. There are only a few crypto threads and it is only a matter of time before one comes along calling it a ponzi/scam/gamble etc.

Because it's vunerable people that have issues managing their personal finances that get drawn into such concepts. In the belief it's an easy route to making money.  

Adyinvestment

Thrugelmir said:

Because it's vunerable people that have issues managing their personal finances that get drawn into such concepts. In the belief it's an easy route to making money.  

Hence the need for more constructive and informed discussions.