EV Charge Tariffs - Your opinion/experience of best company/rate to use

jumeriah64

coffeehound said:

. . . And about two-thirds powered by coal-fired electricity. How very Green.  Actually if you read to the end, 30 pc of those chargers don’t even work. 

You’re of course right that it’s near impossible to dodge things made there, but we should aim to buy western brands wherever possible

I admire the principle and some years back (quite a few) I did try to do this. I really did. I have the budget and motivation to have actually bothered. But I can tell you, it was a very floored and frustrating exercise which would be much worse to embark on now.

We quite simply make next to nothing here now. Cars? Not really unless you in the market for a McClaren. Hifi? Not unless you can afford insanely top top end stuff that you are almost vetted before being allowed to buy. Food? To a limited extent based on seasonally yes. Cables, chargers, laptops, TV's etc ..... unless you happy with 'assembled in ....' then almost impossible with any modicum of spec choice. And I have to confess to having worked for one of those 'assembled in' companies getting significant concessions from the UK and EU in return for proving a percentage EU content. They are better than many and nowhere near as good as some.

Thinking and re-reading back, that was specifically 'British' than I tried to do but you do clearly say 'Western'. So it's not precisely translatable but it's still not a straightforward option. An admirable sentiment for sure.

Interesting and recent article on Beijing air quality. Far from the whole story ( have been to Beijing many times and seen how bad it can be) but they not sitting still either ....

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/23/china/china-air-pollution-mic-intl-hnk/index.html

niktheguru

coffeehound said:

You’re of course right that it’s near impossible to dodge things made there, but we should aim to buy western brands wherever possible

I hope you don’t own anything apple! Well, at least it was “designed” in California eh!

coffeehound

jumeriah64 said:

I admire the principle and some years back (quite a few) I did try to do this. I really did. I have the budget and motivation to have actually bothered. But I can tell you, it was a very floored and frustrating exercise which would be much worse to embark on now.

We quite simply make next to nothing here now. Cars? Not really unless you in the market for a McClaren. Hifi? Not unless you can afford insanely top top end stuff that you are almost vetted before being allowed to buy. Food? To a limited extent based on seasonally yes. Cables, chargers, laptops, TV's etc ..... unless you happy with 'assembled in ....' then almost impossible with any modicum of spec choice. And I have to confess to having worked for one of those 'assembled in' companies getting significant concessions from the UK and EU in return for proving a percentage EU content. They are better than many and nowhere near as good as some.

Thinking and re-reading back, that was specifically 'British' than I tried to do but you do clearly say 'Western'. So it's not precisely translatable but it's still not a straightforward option. An admirable sentiment for sure.

Interesting and recent article on Beijing air quality. Far from the whole story ( have been to Beijing many times and seen how bad it can be) but they not sitting still either ....

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/23/china/china-air-pollution-mic-intl-hnk/index.html

Well done for trying; if only everyone in the West shopped with that mindset we might even-up the playing field a little.  I take your point that it's no longer realistic to avoid Chinese-made products, or at least components.  But buying western brands will keep more wealth in the west and less in the east.  To address @niktheguru 's point, Apple is the biggest company in the world, so clearly buying Apple or Motorola or Eriksson rather than Xiaomi or Huawei is better for the west.

As for China's Green credentials, the reality remains grim . .

A total of 247 gigawatts of coal power is now in planning or development, nearly six times Germany’s entire coal-fired capacity. China has also proposed additional new coal plants that, if built, would generate 73.5 gigawatts of power, more than five times the 13.9 gigawatts proposed in the rest of the world combined. Last year, Chinese provinces granted construction approval to 47 gigawatts of coal power projects, more than three times the capacity permitted in 2019.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissions-china-goes-on-a-coal-spree

niktheguru

coffeehound said:

  To address @niktheguru 's point, Apple is the biggest company in the world, so clearly buying Apple or Motorola or Eriksson rather than Xiaomi or Huawei is better for the west.

Better for the west or just better for lining apples pockets with even more money due to greed, paying people in the sub continent low pay and charging people in the west premium prices. I guess you also thought their idea of helping the environment by no longer providing a charger with their £1000 phone despite not reducing the price was a great thing. If you had your way you'd bring back the western monopolies and have us paying premium prices for everything again due to lack of competition.

Consumers complain all the time about high prices, if nothing was imported we'd be paying top dollar for everything....then there'd be even more moaning.

I'm all for competition, quality and getting the best products for the best prices. I don't predjudice just because of geography. If a xiaomi product is better than a british product I have no problem in buying that product.

I take it you only select british grown fruit and vegetables too.

Also, I hope you know that motorola is owned by Lenovo.....a chinese company.

coffeehound

And of course China isn't greedy at all.  

Yes it is a good thing that Apple don't automatically include a charger with phones.

China stealing our technology and designs and then selling them back to us while agressively, systematically undercutting western manufacturers with active state-sponsorship is not something to be proud of participating in.

jumeriah64

coffeehound said:

jumeriah64 said:

I admire the principle and some years back (quite a few) I did try to do this. I really did. I have the budget and motivation to have actually bothered. But I can tell you, it was a very floored and frustrating exercise which would be much worse to embark on now.

We quite simply make next to nothing here now. Cars? Not really unless you in the market for a McClaren. Hifi? Not unless you can afford insanely top top end stuff that you are almost vetted before being allowed to buy. Food? To a limited extent based on seasonally yes. Cables, chargers, laptops, TV's etc ..... unless you happy with 'assembled in ....' then almost impossible with any modicum of spec choice. And I have to confess to having worked for one of those 'assembled in' companies getting significant concessions from the UK and EU in return for proving a percentage EU content. They are better than many and nowhere near as good as some.

Thinking and re-reading back, that was specifically 'British' than I tried to do but you do clearly say 'Western'. So it's not precisely translatable but it's still not a straightforward option. An admirable sentiment for sure.

Interesting and recent article on Beijing air quality. Far from the whole story ( have been to Beijing many times and seen how bad it can be) but they not sitting still either ....

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/23/china/china-air-pollution-mic-intl-hnk/index.html

Well done for trying; if only everyone in the West shopped with that mindset we might even-up the playing field a little.  I take your point that it's no longer realistic to avoid Chinese-made products, or at least components.  But buying western brands will keep more wealth in the west and less in the east.  To address @niktheguru 's point, Apple is the biggest company in the world, so clearly buying Apple or Motorola or Eriksson rather than Xiaomi or Huawei is better for the west.

As for China's Green credentials, the reality remains grim . .

A total of 247 gigawatts of coal power is now in planning or development, nearly six times Germany’s entire coal-fired capacity. China has also proposed additional new coal plants that, if built, would generate 73.5 gigawatts of power, more than five times the 13.9 gigawatts proposed in the rest of the world combined. Last year, Chinese provinces granted construction approval to 47 gigawatts of coal power projects, more than three times the capacity permitted in 2019.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissions-china-goes-on-a-coal-spree

Interesting stuff coffeehound. And those lines of product distinction are so blurred now that it's very difficult to actually see where a product is made.

But one of our things (my organisation) could come from El Paso, Hungry, Indonesia, any number of places in China, to a very limited extend, the UK and equally limited, Japan. And it's a Japanese company. It really is hard to do. The manufacturing follows the cheapest unit cost of labor. There are discussions now about moving to Africa but is considered too volatile.

That said, I just had a cast around Jumeriah Towers and and every speaker in our place is B&W (genuinely made in the UK but out of many folks budget) but every TV Japanese or China built. Amazingly both our cars (current cars) are UK built and 1995 models ... one in a factory that is now flattened and I think becoming a technology park and the other still operating ..... Peugeot and Nissan. Amazing.

It degrades some past that point unfortunately with the exception of building and cosmetic materials.

Not fully with you on the Apple consideration. Don't know so much but fairly sure most are built in China or Far East and that a significant component count also China built. They are no better than my company is that respect. They follow the cheapest unit labor cost and cheapest consistent supply/cost of raw materials. And in that respect the lowest of both contributes to that coal fired nightmare and smog fog hanging over China. Should they be made in Sweden, Germany or Austria, I suspect they would cost double but with far better environmental credentials. But your average Apple fan is struggling pay £1200 a unit and certainly would kick back at £2k+ but with great envio credentials.

I have also sold my soul in that department. I never owned an Apple product. But I have to confess that last year I (at last) upgraded from a Nokia E61 bought at Dubai airport in 2003 to a brand new flagship Sony mobile. Not bad lifecycle economics and a true story. Unlike my children who bought into the upgrade hell and have kitchen draws full of old Apple detritus :-)

jumeriah64

niktheguru said:

coffeehound said:

  To address @niktheguru 's point, Apple is the biggest company in the world, so clearly buying Apple or Motorola or Eriksson rather than Xiaomi or Huawei is better for the west.

Better for the west or just better for lining apples pockets with even more money due to greed, paying people in the sub continent low pay and charging people in the west premium prices. I guess you also thought their idea of helping the environment by no longer providing a charger with their £1000 phone despite not reducing the price was a great thing. If you had your way you'd bring back the western monopolies and have us paying premium prices for everything again due to lack of competition.

Consumers complain all the time about high prices, if nothing was imported we'd be paying top dollar for everything....then there'd be even more moaning.

I'm all for competition, quality and getting the best products for the best prices. I don't predjudice just because of geography. If a xiaomi product is better than a british product I have no problem in buying that product.

I take it you only select british grown fruit and vegetables too.

Also, I hope you know that motorola is owned by Lenovo.....a chinese company.

Ahh you ahead of me in some content and covered similar ground I just posted. Apologies.

Is complex trying do the right thing. Despite our little islands Brexit 52% decision, the rest of the world practices globalism and we are still doing the same in reality ... but with a chain on one ankle as a result of Brexit.

Globalism with genuine environmental consideration is probably where we should be aiming at. But I'm considerably off topic now :-) 

But hey, good news, Audi have confirmed back they will supply the 22kw mod and the 22kw charging solution and FOC. I think they realised they dropped the ball. Either that or didn't want the push back. So we will be having a 22kw AC solution and at very low cost given WPD also came in at about £300 I think it was to provide 30-phase to the isolator. 

I have still no spoken with Octopus but 100% will and be using that link you mentioned. Audi are terribly geared up in this 'connectivity area' .... you would have thought that 3/4 flowcharts drawn by a German clever person ... and a set of products/services by implication, and then costs would be just so easy.

What I am sensing is that the distribution companies are quite laid back about 3-phase costs during this early 'soft start up' phase. I doubt they will be in three years. Anyone on the benefits edge of this discussion, I would say would be wise to jump earlier rather than later when costs will absolutely go up .... when 300 a week are asking rather than 3.

jumeriah64

This is interesting.

Whilst I totally take the views and analysis saying that 3-phase (and specifically 22kw AC solutions) might be currently top heavy, I have seen papers from WPD that show that they expect this to be a growth area and indeed they have a strategy paper explaining their plan to respond to it.

I will try to get a link for that. It's extremely interesting. And indeed pleasing that these infrastructure folks are planning and executing for 10 years plus. Most of the articles I've read previously suggest that Team UK is poorly geared to respond to the predicted large scale uptake of EV's.

The WPD papers could be marketing or vapourware but so far, my contacts with them and their responses in providing and providing remarkably cheaply have been excellent. Pleasantly surprised.

I would urge folks to at least explore that option even if they reject it in the end cost analysis.

I am going to push though and implement this. I will come back with full and accurate costs for each step in a week or two when I have them all. So far, it's proving way better than expected. Famous last words :-)